Agni-V, India's first ICBM test-fired successfully

Agni-V, India's first ICBM test-fired successfully

NEW DELHI: India on Thursday test-fired for the first time its most-ambitious strategic missile, the over 5,000-km range Agni-V, in a bid to join the super exclusive ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) club that counts just US, Russia,China, France and UK as its members.

The solid-fuelled Agni-V, which will bring the whole of China as well as other regions under its strike envelope, was tested from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast at 8.07 am.

''We have met all our mission objectives,'' said a jubilant DRD0 chief controller of missiles, Avinash Chander.

DRD0 chief V K Saraswat, in turn, said India had emerged as a major missile power with Thursday's test.

The nuclear-capable, three-stage Agni-V, about 50-tonne in weight and 17.5-metre tall, will become fully operational by 2014-2015 after "four to five repeatable tests" and user trials.

India could have gone for a higher strike range but believes the solid-fuelled Agni-V is "more than adequate'' to meet current threat perceptions and security concerns. The missile can, after all, even hit the northernmost parts of China.

India, of course, cannot match China in terms of its vast nuclear and missile arsenals. But missiles like Agni-V and the 3,500-km Agni-IV, tested last November, will certainly add teeth to its credible minimum nuclear deterrence posture.

With a canister-launch system to impart higher road mobility, the missile will give the armed forces much greater operational flexibility than the earlier-generation of Agni missiles.

"The accuracy levels of Agni-V and Agni-IV, with their better guidance and navigation systems, are far higher than Agni-I (700-km), Agni-II (2,000-km) and Agni-III (3,000-km),'' said the source.

The Agni missiles will get deadlier once MIRV (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles) payloads for them are developed. An MIRV payload on a missile carries several nuclear warheads, which can be programmed to hit different targets. A flurry of such missiles can hence completely overwhelm BMD (ballistic missile defence) systems.

*www.economictimes.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=12740031

Agni-V, India's first ICBM test-fired successfully - Times Of India
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Top 10 facts about Agni-V

good,atleast our country can hit bejing and shanghai incase of an eventuality................

M

At last some firepower that can make Chinese to think 1000 time before hitting India :lol:

Its a good demonstration of technology. Our guidance system uses ring-laser-gyroscope which is far more accurate than others'. But the killer feature is that it can carry multiple warheads(MIRV - multiple re entry vehicle), each of which can be targeted to different places! :wink:

On the other hand, IMO, in today's scenario, intelligence gathering, political and economic espionage is more important, cause its very unlikely that we will ever go into a full scale war with any of our neighbours, let alone usage of ballastic missiles. That said, its absolutely necessary to make such missiles and to be prepared for any possible situation. :wink:

T

Only a person with a Gun in hand can demand and maintain peace. Peace is not for beggers

China is saying that Agni V has 8000 km range and India is hiding it !!! they have far better Missile and nuclear arsenal then us !

for me comparing nuclear arsenal is just waste of time.we only need a few of them to turn china in to dust and same goes for India.but I am more than sure that no one will ever use these weapons.because if they use it they will get their *** kicked by other countries.above all if i am right china can't use it because it is under the treaty of not using it and India haven't signed that treaty.so china can only use it when we hit them with a nuclear weapon which is not going to happen.

Good to know that we developed it. Still, China can beat the $hit out of us if it wants.

101gamzer said:
China is saying that Agni V has 8000 km range and India is hiding it !!! they have far better Missile and nuclear arsenal then us !

actually, if we can deliver a package to moon, we can deliver the same halfway around the earth too, just need to calculate the package trajectory and trust in to required location while it's in orbit. however, missile differs a bit from those rockets, they are more portable, compact and usable in short notice.
others china or amreeka, all are aware of what pslv gets converted into by applying a different coating of paint. :-o

p.s. news media claims agni-v can destroy spy-sats, as well as incoming ballistic missiles. i am not aware of how a ballistic missile can do that. :shock:

India hiding missile's actual range? Really? I think, We indians love to brag.

hmmm....Westen Europe and American continent still out of range but atleast our notorious neighbors are in range

G

whats use of missle when soldiers in our army are having oudated guns and weapons...army need to be equiped with good weapons as priority

icebags said:
actually, if we can deliver a package to moon, we can deliver the same halfway around the earth too, just need to calculate the package trajectory and trust in to required location while it's in orbit. however, missile differs a bit from those rockets, they are more portable, compact and usable in short notice.
others china or amreeka, all are aware of what pslv gets converted into by applying a different coating of paint.

p.s. news media claims agni-v can destroy spy-sats, as well as incoming ballistic missiles. i am not aware of how a ballistic missile can do that.

India has already achieved technology of hitting an incoming missile. This is a very advanced technology though.

As far as sending a missile/rocket to half distance if earth is not that easy. It always fails due to one reason, "Cryogenic engine", which India is not able to develop fully, and no country is ready to sell. If India develops it, lunar missions + ICBM+ range will be much easier.

But until its not conducted into army after full fledge test, we can't be so sure of its success. Remember Agni IV, it got an array of failures.

gopi_vbboy said:
whats use of missle when soldiers in our army are having oudated guns and weapons...army need to be equiped with good weapons as priority

.22 Vs m4 (or even mp5 smg) , can you imagine! :lol:

dashing.sujay said:
India has already achieved technology of hitting an incoming missile. This is a very advanced technology though.

As far as sending a missile/rocket to half distance if earth is not that easy. It always fails due to one reason, "Cryogenic engine", which India is not able to develop fully, and no country is ready to sell. If India develops it, lunar missions + ICBM+ range will be much easier.

But until its not conducted into army after full fledge test, we can't be so sure of its success. Remember Agni IV, it got an array of failures.

hey yo, i just wondered how u hit an coming missile with some super heavy agni missile. :-D

well, the tech of hitting incoming missile is not consistent, they keep changing when newer countermeasures are incorporated in the incoming missile. for ex, the models of patriot missiles that us used to protect israel in 90s, are considered outdated now. they made some even "better" patties, india wants them too, but us simply wont give. :mrgreen:

about cryogenic engine, that's what is used for very upper parts of the atmosphere & space, and we are lacking this alright. but we have alternative, that's just not as good as the cryo engine. pslv does it's job well, and consider the fact that if u can put a satellite in lower earth orbit, you can pull it down too, just need to calculate its path (it should have an operational engine though) so that it does not get burned up during atmospheric re-entry.

ps: it seems agni-v can launch small lower earth spy sats too. its a capability nice to have. guess when ur operational spy sats are shot down by the enemy, you can just put another from a railway tack near baranasi or from the highway by the side of a football ground.

We don't really have an alternative for cryogenic engine.

consider the fact that if u can put a satellite in lower earth orbit, you can pull it down too, just need to calculate its path (it should have an operational engine though)

how you think we propelled that chandrayan into moon orbit?

solid fuel engines are not used in space. we used old liquid fuel engine, containing separate tanks of fuel and oxidizer.

cryogenic engine differs from liquid fuel engines in sense that, it keeps gaseous fuels in "cryo" temp, i.e. very low temp. thats why same mass of cryo fuel entered in burning chamber produces faster burn or more thrust than that of conventional liquid engine.

cryo engine = more power = more payload. liquid fuel engine can be used in place of a cryo engine, just the payload will be much smaller.

Missile and Satellite launching tech, though pretty similar, are not exactly the same. Just because we can launch to the moon on doesn't mean we can hit anyplace on the earth. Note that the Agni V is a all-solid missile.

And also note that in terms or raw thrust, nothing beats the good old solid propellant based engines. The point where liquid propellants (cryo or not) are good is thrust per unit mass of fuel.

And as icebags said, liquid engines are acceptable alternatives to cryo engines. Cryo engines are liquid engines afterall.

A

p.s. news media claims agni-v can destroy spy-sats, as well as incoming ballistic missiles. i am not aware of how a ballistic missile can do that.

no it can't destroy incoming ballistic missile, they might talking about destroying Satellites, evading the Anti-Ballistic missiles using maneuvers. We also have a ballistic missile defense program going on.

for me comparing nuclear arsenal is just waste of time.we only need a few of them to turn china in to dust and same goes for India

It would take lot of nukes to turn a large country into dust. normally the idea is to deter or threaten them with dire consequences like destroying major cities

gopi_vbboy said:
whats use of missle when soldiers in our army are having oudated guns and weapons...army need to be equiped with good weapons as priority

That's why we are prioritizing on Deterrence.

gopi_vbboy said:
whats use of missle when soldiers in our army are having oudated guns and weapons...army need to be equiped with good weapons as priority

dude,thats only possible if our generals and politicians/ministers stop "eating" out of defence deals

W

some clarification:
1.India does not have functional MIRV tech yet(read today's TOI P17 Tessy Thomas,Agni project director statement where she mentioned it as next target).

2.the so called missile defense shield even of USA after spending tens of billions of $ can only stop 1-2 missiles with a probability in the range of 90%. intercepting a missile with another missile is like trying to hit a bullet with another bullet midway in the air kinda like something you see in movies.it is very difficult & almost impossible if you consider a scenario of 4-5 or more missiles coming.missile defense shield is only to prevent 1-2 missiles from rouge states like north korea or some terrorist organization getting their hands on a missile.it is useless against a nation like USA or Russia having 1000s of missiles on an automated launch control.

3.no matter what weapon you have it is useless if you can't use it fast enough.India does not have any well defined central nuclear command which even Pakistan has.it will probably take us 15 minutes to half an hour just to assemble the warhead & delivery system like agni.of course pakistan can not annihilate our launching facilities in this time but china has the resources though it will mean an all out nuclear war so very unlikely but possibility is there.it also means that if someday a terrorist organization uses a nuclear device against India Pakistan will have ~30 minutes to talk to indian leadership to convince them it is not them(even if they are lying) not to mention US/world intervention(similar to aftermath of mumbai attack but much more pressure).

conclusion:more than nukes it is the conventional military strength & strong political leadership which will benefit us more instead of 10000Km 12MIRV(multiple independently-launchable re-entry vehicle) capable Agni.....

whitestar_999 said:
conclusion:more than nukes it is the conventional military strength & strong political leadership which will benefit us more instead of 10000km 12mirv(multiple independently-launchable re-entry vehicle) capable agni.....

...

+ 1

whitestar_999 said:
some clarification:
1.India does not have functional MIRV tech yet(read today's TOI P17 Tessy Thomas,Agni project director statement where she mentioned it as next target).

India is developing it. I heard India investing in Agni-6 SLBM with MIRV 6000 km range and the best is part SLBM.

whitestar_999 said:
2.the so called missile defense shield even of USA after spending tens of billions of $ can only stop 1-2 missiles with a probability in the range of 90%. intercepting a missile with another missile is like trying to hit a bullet with another bullet midway in the air kinda like something you see in movies.it is very difficult & almost impossible if you consider a scenario of 4-5 or more missiles coming.missile defense shield is only to prevent 1-2 missiles from rouge states like north korea or some terrorist organization getting their hands on a missile.it is useless against a nation like USA or Russia having 1000s of missiles on an automated launch contro

l.

This is reality, no system is fail-proof, especially system such as iron dome (Used by Israel)which was developed only within 3 years and is still improving. The recent attack by Gaza were two rockets hit Be'er Sheva school and residential neighborhood; senior official to Haaretz.

Over 200 rockets were fired at Israel, only 60 of 200+ were identified as to hit protected area, the system launch 60 interceptors which managed to intercept 56, this is 93% of success! Iron Dome is still in operational testing and will improve, there is no analogue system in the world to Iron Dome.

I think we are already operating Spyder air defense system.

whitestar_999 said:
3.no matter what weapon you have it is useless if you can't use it fast enough.India does not have any well defined central nuclear command which even Pakistan has.it will probably take us 15 minutes to half an hour just to assemble the warhead & delivery system like agni.of course pakistan can not annihilate our launching facilities in this time but china has the resources though it will mean an all out nuclear war so very unlikely but possibility is there.it also means that if someday a terrorist organization uses a nuclear device against India Pakistan will have ~30 minutes to talk to indian leadership to convince them it is not them(even if they are lying) not to mention US/world intervention(similar to aftermath of mumbai attack but much more pressure).

Our worthy politicians are busy watching porn in the Assemblies and doing sex ! And that's more interesting by far, than discussing national security issues, which is kinda boring, what?

whitestar_999 said:
some clarification:
India does not have any well defined central nuclear command which even Pakistan has

we have.do some research please

The Indian Strategic Forces Command (SFC), sometimes called The Strategic Nuclear Command forms part of India's Nuclear Command Authority (NCA). It is responsible for the management and administration of the country's tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile. It was created on January 4, 2003.
It is the responsibility of the SFC to operationalize the directives of the NCA under the leadership of a Commander-in-Chief of the rank of Air Marshal (or its equivalent). It will have the sole responsibility of initiating the process of delivering nuclear weapons and warheads, after acquiring explicit approval from the NCA. The exact selection of the target area shall be decided by the SFC through a calibrated, cumulative process involving various levels of decision-making, and with formal approval by the NCA.
The SFC manages and administers all strategic forces by exercising complete command and control over nuclear assets, and producing all contingency plans as needed to fulfil the required tasks. Since its inception, the SFC’s Command, Control and Communication systems have been firmly established, and the command has attained a high state of operational readiness.

Strategic Forces Command

NIGHTMARE said:
Our worthy politicians are busy watching porn in the Assemblies and doing sex ! And that's more interesting by far, than discussing national security issues, which is kinda boring, what?

No,our politicos do other important activities, mostly they are busy watching thier Swiss bank accounts fill.now that's intresting :rofl:

A

India is developing it. I heard India investing in Agni-6 SLBM with MIRV 6000 km range and the best is part SLBM.

All composite Three Stage SLBM on a decently silent Ballistic missile Submarine, with MIRVs and evasive maneuvers in Mid-course & terminal stages will be culmination of Indias missile program. Development of Agni-3 was probably the first step of this endeavor.

3.no matter what weapon you have it is useless if you can't use it fast enough.India does not have any well defined central nuclear command which even Pakistan has.it will probably take us 15 minutes to half an hour just to assemble the warhead & delivery system like agni.of course pakistan can not annihilate our launching facilities in this time but china has the resources though it will mean an all out nuclear war so very unlikely but possibility is there.it also means that if someday a terrorist organization uses a nuclear device against India Pakistan will have ~30 minutes to talk to indian leadership to convince them it is not them(even if they are lying) not to mention US/world intervention(similar to aftermath of mumbai attack but much more pressure).

conclusion:more than nukes it is the conventional military strength & strong political leadership which will benefit us more instead of 10000Km 12MIRV(multiple independently-launchable re-entry vehicle) capable Agni.....

we can discuss so many scenarios of nuclear war but basically its critical to have the capability, regardless of how command, control or politicians work. We can change the policy anytime, mate the warheads into the missiles in peacetime itself, it all depends on political situation, level of preparedness, reaction time. WMDs are as important conventional military strength, probably more important in Indian Scenario considering two of our neighbors have lots of nukes.

I thought it had MIRV.

ajaymailed said:
we can discuss so many hypothetical scenarios of nuclear war but basically its critical to have the capability, regardless of how command, control or politicians work. We can change the policy anytime, mate the warheads into the missiles in peacetime itself, it all depends on political situation, level of preparedness, reaction time. WMDs are as important conventional military strength, probably more important in Indian Scenario considering two of our neighbors have lots of nukes.

apart from nukes one neighbor has terrosists while another neighbor has lots of infantry

A

actually India may have been a bit late in developing these kind of long range weapons thanks to US pressure and lack of any serious R&D in 60s & 70s. Nukes were originally meant for China and without having credible delivery systems reaching anywhere in china, there wouldn't be any credible deterrence. Attempt in 1970s met with failure and program didn't start again untill in 1983. Thanks to MTCR and US pressure, Agni program faced furthers delays. Compared to this India started nuke development in late 60s and tested in 74, while ISRO started developing four-stage launch vehicle in 1970s and tested in 80.

if Project Valiant in 1970s was a success, todays missile force would have been completely different and far ahead. That normally should have been the timeline of Indias missile program, we indeed had the resources, outside help to achieve such a capability long ago but god had other plans.

this is a thread where true patriots marvel at thier country's nuke power

whitestar_999 said:
some clarification:
2.the so called missile defense shield even of USA after spending tens of billions of $ can only stop 1-2 missiles with a probability in the range of 90%. intercepting a missile with another missile is like trying to hit a bullet with another bullet midway in the air kinda like something you see in movies.it is very difficult & almost impossible if you consider a scenario of 4-5 or more missiles coming.missile defense shield is only to prevent 1-2 missiles from rouge states like north korea or some terrorist organization getting their hands on a missile.it is useless against a nation like USA or Russia having 1000s of missiles on an automated launch control.

conclusion:more than nukes it is the conventional military strength & strong political leadership which will benefit us more instead of 10000Km 12MIRV(multiple independently-launchable re-entry vehicle) capable Agni.....

2.> missile defense is pretty effective, read nightmare's post, also take example from the 1991 iraq war, iraq fired lots of scud missile to israel, and probably 80% of those incoming missiles were shot down by patriot missiles.

conclusion > nukes & long range ballistic missiles are not exactly conventional fighting tools. it's like a pike-man facing a swordsman. no matter how heavily armored a swordsman is, he will think twice before engaging a pikeman. its a tool of global political warfare. :-D

W

@CommanderShawnzer,i know about NCA & SFC & that is why i used the words "not have any well defined central nuclear command".read this:
India Together: Whose command, whose control over the nuclear complex? - 14 August 2011
also India still does not have a CDS like in USA even though the draft/report was prepared years ago.at the expense of sounding like an old person let me tell you something.i was there in 1991 reading papers during infamous financial meltdown of India & the rhetoric in regional papers about how this is going to be a 2nd east india company after economy was forced to open up.again in 1996-97 during duncan & gates era reading hindi newspapers would led you to believe that India is going to be sold off.i had read about how opening up telecom sector to privatization will rob India of its glory(getting a landline connection after waiting for 2-3 years was a celebrated occasion).all this experience has led to one conclusion only.if the policy is modern,beneficial for most & takes in to account long terms goals not just short one then it will most likely either never implemented or implemented with unfair means(just so you know the man who can be considered as one of the founding person of this telecom revolution,then telecom minister Sukhram actually did it for bribe!if he had been an honest person even telecom revolution would have been late by a few years).

@NIGHTMARE,you are comparing multi barrel rocket launchers with ballistic & cruise missiles.just so you know intercepting such rocket attacks is relatively very easy & technology is there for at least a decade now i think.why do you think USA's defense shield program is criticized in senate if it is so successful?reason being that USA military had a hard time convincing senators about creating a system after spending almost $10 billion which can only be effectively used against 2-3 missile attack by rouge nations/actors but of no use against nations like China & Russia.spyder defense system is an anti-aircraft missile system not to be used against ballistic missiles.laws of physics makes it very hard to intercept even 1 ICBM let alone successfully stop a simultaneous attack of 5-6 ICBM's & more.unless someone develop a quantum computer which can calculate trillions of calculations in fraction of a second it is not possible to design a guidance system which can simultaneously track & intercept large no. of incoming ballistic missiles.

@ajaymailed,India can already take care of threat from Pakistan with a 700KM range agni-I.however what did you saw during operation Parakram of 2001 after parliament attack.it took 1 month(yes you are reading it correct!) to fully operationalize indian army leading to a huge embarrassment for the govt & probably the reason why India couldn't launch any counter offensive.this leads to army & govt coming up with the so called cold start doctrine(kinda like pc cold boot) to reduce the reaction time.army now routinely does exercises to improve its cold start performance.similarly with the mumbai attacks where intelligence & security failures occured at almost all levels.just so you know the NSG commandos couldn't reach mumbai earlier because they didn't had an empty runway & plane to take-off not to mention traffic jam reaching the available runway which lead to govt proposing a dedicated plane & runway at the NSG location hub itself!!did nukes helped at that time?no.even a basic nuclear capacity is enough to deter other nuclear powers(ex.north korea).hell a country can blackmail the world by just declaring that it will release all the technical knowhow(centrifuge designs etc) on internet if it can not even use its nuclear weapons & this will stop any impending attack on that country.

A

2.> missile defense is pretty effective, read nightmare's post, also take example from the 1991 iraq war, iraq fired lots of scud missile to israel, and probably 80% of those incoming missiles were shot down by patriot missiles.

he may talking about longer range missiles than Scuds. ICBMs & IRBMs are much harder to intercept due to the extremely high speed of reentry vehicle. A bullet is four to five times slower than rentry vehicle of an typical MRBM or IRBM.

ICBMs are even more faster, would incorporate even better technologies like
MIRVs, Decoys, Maneuverable RVs, Post-boost vehicles which makes life much difficult for any missile defense. Despite having three-tier defence systems, US is struggling to achieve a decent success against modern ICBMs. The Russian Topol-M for instance can easily handle any Missile defence measures US can throw at it.e

For its advertized range, Agni-Vs speed is quite astonishing, DRDO publicly stated it has reached 7000 meters per second. thats real close to orbital velocity
It would be exciting if DRDO released images of Agni-Vs splash down in Indian Ocean caught by Navy ships. should be one heck of fireball in a hurry towards its destination :twisted:

. would imagine it being similar to a meteor.

@ajaymailed,India can already take care of threat from Pakistan with a 700KM range agni-I.however what did you saw during operation Parakram of 2001 after parliament attack.it took 1 month(yes you are reading it correct!) to fully operationalize indian army leading to a huge embarrassment for the govt & probably the reason why India couldn't launch any counter offensive.this leads to army & govt coming up with the so called cold start doctrine(kinda like pc cold boot) to reduce the reaction time.army now routinely does exercises to improve its cold start performance.similarly with the mumbai attacks where intelligence & security failures occured at almost all levels.just so you know the NSG commandos couldn't reach mumbai earlier because they didn't had an empty runway & plane to take-off not to mention traffic jam reaching the available runway which lead to govt proposing a dedicated plane & runway at the NSG location hub itself!!did nukes helped at that time?no.even a basic nuclear capacity is enough to deter other nuclear powers(ex.north korea).hell a country can blackmail the world by just declaring that it will release all the technical knowhow(centrifuge designs etc) on internet if it can not even use its nuclear weapons & this will stop any impending attack on that country.

How WMDs are related to Indian Army preparedness or special forces capability to react and act quickly? . why blame WMDs, if there were problems with Indian Army or special forces. WMDs are supposed to be weapons of last resort, only to be employed in worst case scenario.

no.even a basic nuclear capacity is enough to deter other nuclear powers(ex.north korea).hell a country can blackmail the world by just declaring that it will release all the technical knowhow(centrifuge designs etc) on internet if it can not even use its nuclear weapons & this will stop any impending attack on that country

Detterance is the key word. We need enemy to understand, if they tried to mess with us, the damage will be unacceptable. just like Pakistan threatens India with nuclear holocaust, thats called detterance.

I dunno whats the meaning of basic nuclear capacity? , right now i don't think India has advanced proven credible nuclear capacity like that of P5 countries, basic capacity is what we have proved in 1998 tests. we probably think its enough. any more advanced warhead designs will need to proven through tests. Its unlikely that india may test anytime in near future as long we are comfortable with basic nuclear capacity.

W

my point is that highlighting Agni V as some kind of panacea for all our defense troubles is wrong when our army is struggling in even maintaining its conventional military strength.relying too much on WMD's probably was the reason of lax attitude towards conventional military strength after 1998 tests which resulted in serious problems during Kargil conflict which later resulted in India becoming top weapons importer of the world.instead of developing our own tanks,guns & airplanes we are buying everything.this does not even include the failures of Arjuna tank,LCA & many more such projects.

by basic nuclear capacity i meant a simple nuclear device loaded on a plane,carried by a specialized unit etc & does not include likes of ballistic missiles,SLBMs etc.after all there is no point in using agni V against Pakistan which presents the most security challenge to India.instead of now spending too much resources on developing next variant of Agni India should focus on improving its core & conventional military strength.this also means developing our own guns,tanks & planes instead of buying them.this is the reason why China who once was amongst largest arms importer is now set to become one of the top arms exporter in coming years.

A

whitestar_999 said:
my point is that highlighting Agni V as some kind of panacea for all our defense troubles is wrong when our army is struggling in even maintaining its conventional military strength.

thats absolutely wrong notion, i dunno who is even giving that idea.
Agni-V was a leap in technological capability as far nuclear system delivery is concerned, its give a huge boost in deterrence against China. It does give us some capabilities that only P5 countries and may be Israel possess. but thats just about it

relying too much on WMD's probably was the reason of lax attitude towards conventional military strength after 1998 tests which resulted in serious problems during Kargil conflict which later resulted in India becoming top weapons importer of the world.instead of developing our own tanks,guns & airplanes we are buying everything.this does not even include the failures of Arjuna tank,LCA & many more such projects.

I don't agree with that. The reasons of kargil conflict are quite clearly known and so are the reason for india importing lots n lots arms and problem with indigenous weapon systems. Its little to do with india going nuclear in 1998. Kargil happened just one year later, unlikely to have any relation.

by basic nuclear capacity i meant a simple nuclear device loaded on a plane,carried by a specialized unit etc & does not include likes of ballistic missiles,SLBMs etc.after all there is no point in using agni V against Pakistan which presents the most security challenge to India.

Agni V, SLBMs is absolutely of no use against Pakistan

basically
India had to go nuclear in 1974 because of China.
Agni-II, III, IV, V, SLBM, Arihant, are china specific. developed keeping China in mind. Indian Military itself would not have been so big in first place if 62 didn't happen

instead of now spending too much resources on developing next variant of Agni India should focus on improving its core & conventional military strength.this also means developing our own guns,tanks & planes instead of buying them

We surely don't spend too much on Agni missile program. The development of Agni-V costed 2500 crores as per media reports. Thats not much compared to what India spends on conventional forces.

compared to 40 billion dollar defence budget this year, money spent on developing missile force will be quite insignificant.

Challenges & failures in developing our own guns, tanks & planes is a different story, we can surely discuss further about it but we will going completely off topic.

W

india didn't go nuclear in 1998.it did in 1974 25 years before kargil as you stated.i might have erred in posting 1998 date in my earlier statement about lax attitude but still the central part remain valid about laxity after conducting nuclear test albeit in 1974.

by spending too much i didn't just mean money but resources like time,personnel,attention,focus etc.most probably an average indian know about agni project but does not know about failures & restrictions of kaveri engine in Tejas.if such utilization of resources were to be spend on projects like Tejas & Arjun much better results would be expected.

A

whitestar_999 said:
by spending too much i didn't just mean money but resources like time,personnel,attention,focus etc.most probably an average indian know about agni project but does not know about failures & restrictions of kaveri engine in Tejas.if such utilization of resources were to be spend on projects like Tejas & Arjun much better results would be expected.

one main problem is we can import as many fighters or tanks which could easily better Tejas or Arjun but we cannot import Russian or US ICBMs. Developing them indigenously is the only option.

some indigenous projects failed because India simply didn't have technology know-how, some because of mismanagement, delays, some because armed forces thought imported content is much better. But DRDO, HAL, ADA etc are really large organizations, do have resources to come out with conventional weapon systems as well.
The main challenge was Military always compares the best of systems they can import with DRDOs indigenous product. DRDO has been unable to or struggling to meet that requirement of matching the world class conventional systems.

take Tejas for example, even if we forget Kaveri engine, IAF requirements made it mandatory for Tejas to have even more powerful engine than GE F404 which was currently powering Tejas test flights. So they selected GE F414, but it would another 2 to 3 yrs to intergrate that engine into Tejas.

Joint Venture development seems to be the better way of going at it, Brahmos, PAK-FA etc. are some good examples. India is going go sink in billions of dollars into fifth-gen russian fighter but we have to see whats the benefit for our industry.

W

i agree but just like i said before no matter how powerful the weapon is it is useless if can't be used fast enough.problem with imported arms is it takes years to complete not to mention issues related to spare parts etc.the $10 billion MMRCA deal will take anywhere ~5-7 years to finally deliver all planes.as i see it an indigenous squad of 4th gen fighter crafts is much better than 4 4.5 generation technically superior planes imported from abroad both costing almost same.also India does have basic technical know how or how can we have space & missile program.Brazil has inferior space program capabilities compared to us yet India bought Embraer jets for VVIPs including PM from Brazil.more than know how it is the lax & incorrect attitude & policies of govt as well as mistakes committed on army's part for DRDO's blunders.

P.S.don't remember but i read some articles in Times Crest edition & sunday edition about army's faulty policies too regarding relying too much on imported hardware & neglecting bigger picture.Chinese actually reverse engineered russian planes to bring out their own cheaper variant & then even sold it to other countries.i am not supporting this but Indian army should also take into account bigger picture where half a generation behind indigenous weapon can be much more of value than the latest gen imported weapon.after all in war numbers also matters.it is not a simple equation like like 1 4.5 gen plane=2 4 gen planes.

A

whitestar_999 said:
i agree but just like i said before no matter how powerful the weapon is it is useless if can't be used fast enough.problem with imported arms is it takes years to complete not to mention issues related to spare parts etc.the $10 billion MMRCA deal will take anywhere ~5-7 years to finally deliver all planes.as i see it an indigenous squad of 4th gen fighter crafts is much better than 4 4.5 generation technically superior planes imported from abroad both costing almost same.also India does have basic technical know how or how can we have space & missile program.Brazil has inferior space program capabilities compared to us yet India bought Embraer jets for VVIPs including PM from Brazil.more than know how it is the lax & incorrect attitude & policies of govt as well as mistakes committed on army's part for DRDO's blunders.

P.S.don't remember but i read some articles in Times Crest edition & sunday edition about army's faulty policies too regarding relying too much on imported hardware & neglecting bigger picture.Chinese actually reverse engineered russian planes to bring out their own cheaper variant & then even sold it to other countries.i am not supporting this but Indian army should also take into account bigger picture where half a generation behind indigenous weapon can be much more of value than the latest gen imported weapon.after all in war numbers also matters.it is not a simple equation like like 1 4.5 gen plane=2 4 gen planes.

HAL may not even have infrastructure good enough to produce rafale. they need time to learn how to produce rafale. But MMRCA is expected to give us lot of boost in improving aircraft production capabilities. Defence PSUs are even worse than R&D Labs.

.also India does have basic technical know how or how can we have space & missile program.Brazil has inferior space program capabilities compared to us yet India bought Embraer jets for VVIPs including PM from Brazil.more than know how it is the lax & incorrect attitude & policies of govt as well as mistakes committed on army's part for DRDO's blunders.

That does mean Aviation & Space are that much different. Israel, SKorea, etc many countries have better technological capabilities yet no-where compared to Indian Space program.

BTW i didn't even know Brazil has got a space program.

@ajaymailed,whitestar_999 : dudes. you two are going a bit offtopic with all the indian arms vs imported arms discussion.please keep discusssion limited to agni-V and related stuff
we can create another thread to debate this : indian arms vs imported arms

W

well it is my opinion that discussing agni V viz-a-viz its implications for indian defense scenario is all related which inevitably includes the indigenous vs imported arms discussions since the main highlight of Agni V is being indigenous.still i believe i have discussed what ever there is to discuss about this so worry not.from my side i am ending my discussion.Agni V no doubt is a significant achievement for India now let's hope this success can be repeated in other defense sectors like planes,tanks etc.

A

some news about future tests and canister

The Hindu : News / National : Agni-V trials in final configuration to begin early next year

The first of the six flight trials of India' longest range ballistic missile, Agni-V, in its final quick-reaction configuration, providing a canister-launch capability, will be held in early 2013.

Mr. Chander said the DRDO had set up a facility for “missile ejection tests” at Shamirpet near Hyderabad, for carrying out a canister-launch simulation by placing a dummy missile. The first road mobile launcher being produced by the private industry would be ready next month and the missile ejections tests would begin from June.

With the Agni-V missile scheduled to be inducted into the Army in the next few years, he said, six flight tests, including three pre-induction trials, would be conducted.

Good thing about this test is the reaction from western countries, especially with US being almost silent. Its was quite different in 90s when US put lot of pressure to stop the same Agni missile program.

China is way ahead of India in any department, say missile, or air power, Navy, Army.... anything.... just search Wikipedia about Chinese army , and you can understand, india is nowhere near China.....

you may also read sometimes ago, General VK singh said in private note, if in this moment any war stars , india has stocks for 4 days of war only....

A

www.nti.org/media/pdfs/india_missile.pdf?_=1316466791
a very good read on detailed timeline of Indias missile & Space program even though its a pro-non proliferation wesbsite.

Tech.Masti said:
China is way ahead of India in any department, say missile, or air power, Navy, Army.... anything.... just search Wikipedia about Chinese army , and you can understand, india is nowhere near China.....

thats kind of the reason why Agni-V was developed and why we buy so many arms.

icebags said:
2.> missile defense is pretty effective, read nightmare's post, also take example from the 1991 iraq war, iraq fired lots of scud missile to israel, and probably 80% of those incoming missiles were shot down by patriot missiles.

conclusion > nukes & long range ballistic missiles are not exactly conventional fighting tools. it's like a pike-man facing a swordsman. no matter how heavily armored a swordsman is, he will think twice before engaging a pikeman. its a tool of global political warfare.

Every weapons of israel is coming from USA but it is interesting to see US did not give its fifth generation F22 Raptor to israel :lol:

BTW India also have developed Interceptor missile

Instead of missiles cant they Improve the Indian Armor,Tanks,Esp the Fighter Planes

serpent16 said:
Instead of missiles cant they Improve the Indian Armor,Tanks,Esp the Fighter Planes

True but with out an ICBM missle our army will be useless

Well now china is in threat by india

.

^
Not true. Israel is quite a phenomenon in the weapons manufacture world. They may not have the abilities to build a fighter on their own, but they are real good in the small fire arms section. There was a show on discovery that I used to watch- future weapons- and boy! the israelis had some good firearms... And yeah the US is not really willing to sell its 5th gen aircraft to anyone

And yes we do have an active missile defense program.

serpent16 said:
Instead of missiles cant they Improve the Indian Armor,Tanks,Esp the Fighter Planes

Already work going on for reactive armor for tanks and SUkhoi 30MKI is another example.

Tech.Masti said:
China is way ahead of India in any department, say missile, or air power, Navy, Army.... anything.... just search Wikipedia about Chinese army , and you can understand, india is nowhere near China.....

That's why weapons of deterrence are of importance because standing against Chinese army is against the odds in numbers.

Whatever happens.I dont want any wars.I want peace.Hope china doesnt attack India.Due to the threat of the missiles

A

serpent16 said:
Whatever happens.I dont want any wars.I want peace.Hope china doesnt attack India.Due to the threat of the missiles

if anything, Agni V is only going to help stable Indo-China relations. achieving minimum deterrence means even less possibility of conflict. Media might have blown it out proportions, but these mind & political games will continue in future. Truth to be told, Agni-V will be much lesser of their worries, compared to their major foe, the United States & Allies in the region. Chinese dislike closer Indo-US relations than Agni-V. They would have figured out long ago that India would come out with a missile like A5 some or the other day but they may not have expected the present level Indo-US relations. China was probably hoping that US pressure will continue on Indias missile program.

Tech.Masti said:
China is way ahead of India in any department, say missile, or air power, Navy, Army.... anything.... just search Wikipedia about Chinese army , and you can understand, india is nowhere near China.....

you may also read sometimes ago, General VK singh said in private note, if in this moment any war stars , india has stocks for 4 days of war only....

I don't want to offtopic again but situation vis-a-vis Chinese is not all that bad. Even though India imports lots of arms, we have few very capable platforms , some of which outperform anything chinese have. Su-30MKI is one example, MMRCA, PAK-FA etc. Chinese do have few weak areas because they sacrificed performance gains for sake of indigenous capabilities even if its through reverse engineering

India cut Agni V range from 9000 km to 5000 km under NATO pressure: Chinese media - The Economic Times
the chinese provoking us to show the real capabilities of Agni-V but that aint gonna happen. Surely India is not going to test Agni-V with its full range. Agni-V is not an ICBM as far as India is concerned but a long range ballistic missile, but it can be if she intends to.

ajaymailed said:
India cut Agni V range from 9000 km to 5000 km under NATO pressure: Chinese media - The Economic Times
the chinese provoking us to show the real capabilities of Agni-V but that aint gonna happen. Surely India is not going to test Agni-V with its full range. Agni-V is not an ICBM as far as India is concerned but a long range ballistic missile, but it can be if she intends to.

Sorry buddy, u r wrong in particular in your last paragraph. Though Agni V is not qualifying the distance criteria for ICBMs, but its still classified as an ICBM as per DRDO because it is satisfying all other specs of an ICBM. As far as Agni V is concerned, it can also traverse more than 5000 KM with nuclear payloads, but initial simulations and testing was done only for 5000 KM.

A

summers said:
Sorry buddy, u r wrong in particular in your last paragraph. Though Agni V is not qualifying the distance criteria for ICBMs, but its still classified as an ICBM as per DRDO because it is satisfying all other specs of an ICBM. As far as Agni V is concerned, it can also traverse more than 5000 KM with nuclear payloads, but initial simulations and testing was done only for 5000 KM.

Agni-V is an not an ICBM officially, Government calls it Long Range Ballistic missile
Press Information Bureau English Releases

AGNI-V Success A Great Moment for Indian Scientific Community: Antony
The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today described the maiden test flight of Long Range Ballistic Missile (LRBM) Agni-V as a great moment for India and its scientific community. Shri Antony spoke to DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat and Project Director Shri Avinash Chander immediately after the event and congratulated the entire team for the immaculate success.

Shri Antony said today’s achievement is a major milestone in the country’s Missile Programme and it reminds us of the untiring efforts of numerous unsung scientists of DRDO who have worked relentlessly years together to bring the nation to this threshold. Shri Antony also spoke to former DRDO chief Mr M. Natarajan and fondly remembered his contribution to various projects of the organisation.

check out the drdo press release, no mention the word ICBM.
DRDO Press Release
ofcoz DRDO will state they can increase the range further depending on political requirements.

5000km is deliberate political range. The problem is there are some out there gunning to prove India with aggressive intentions to develop ICBMs, denying opportunity for hi-technology access India. Thats the reason ISRO stays away from anything military . Its the same reason Agni-V is just a 5000km missile and will continue to be. Despite having potential resources to come up with an ICBM many years ago, India just faced much of US pressure. One of reason MTCR came up was to deny India access to technologies critical for launch vehicles and ballistic & cruise missiles.

India has been battling pro-NPT activists always there to deny the transfer of technology related to dual civil-military usage. Testing for 5000km was smart move, proves to china, doesn't alarm the west.

nuclear deal, access to NSG, US lifting sanctions against ISRO & DRDO Labs are part of battle that is going between India & Pro-NPT Gang. Its ironic that India now desires membership in MTCR, Missile Technology Control Regime, the same thing which was started to deny India with advanced technologies required to build missiles like Agni-V.
India pitches for membership of global non-proliferation regimes - Times Of India
this is the reason Government will never use the I-word officially even though everyone knows about potential capabilities.

ajaymailed said:
Agni-V is an not an ICBM officially, Government calls it Long Range Ballistic missile
Press Information Bureau English Releases

check out the drdo press release, no mention the word ICBM.
DRDO Press Release
ofcoz DRDO will state they can increase the range further depending on political requirements.

5000km is deliberate political range. The problem is there are some out there gunning to prove India with aggressive intentions to develop ICBMs, denying opportunity for hi-technology access India. Thats the reason ISRO stays away from anything military . Its the same reason Agni-V is just a 5000km missile and will continue to be. Despite having potential resources to come up with an ICBM many years ago, India just faced much of US pressure. One of reason MTCR came up was to deny India access to technologies critical for launch vehicles and ballistic & cruise missiles.

India has been battling pro-NPT activists always there to deny the transfer of technology related to dual civil-military usage. Testing for 5000km was smart move, proves to china, doesn't alarm the west.

nuclear deal, access to NSG, US lifting sanctions against ISRO & DRDO Labs are part of battle that is going between India & Pro-NPT Gang. Its ironic that India now desires membership in MTCR, Missile Technology Control Regime, the same thing which was started to deny India with advanced technologies required to build missiles like Agni-V.
India pitches for membership of global non-proliferation regimes - Times Of India
this is the reason Government will never use the I-word officially even though everyone knows about potential capabilities.

Though the official media release from both Govt. and DRDO says that Agni-V is a long range range ballistic missile, but the whole world knows it as an ICBM. The Wikipedia classifies it as an ICBM. Moreover, what is of utmost importance is the fact that the test fire was of more than 5000 KM.

*articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.c...i-v-mirv-payload-targetable-re-entry-vehicles

*www.ndtv.com/article/india/agni-v-indias-first-icbm-successfully-test-fired-199344

*www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3330921.ece

And as i've already said earlier, it qualifies the criteria for ICBM's in all other specs except for minimum distance; its a move by Govt. of keeping it a bit short in one single criteria just to avoid unnecessary ears from all around the world thereby keeping it focused towards China.

And as you say that Agni-V is not an ICBM, then why does its test fire has created so much hustle bustle in the entire world with India joining the elite ICBM club...........??

whitestar_999 said:
you are comparing multi barrel rocket launchers with ballistic & cruise missiles.just so you know intercepting such rocket attacks is relatively very easy & technology is there for at least a decade now i think.why do you think USA's defense shield program is criticized in senate if it is so successful?reason being that USA military had a hard time convincing senators about creating a system after spending almost $10 billion which can only be effectively used against 2-3 missile attack by rouge nations/actors but of no use against nations like China & Russia.spyder defense system is an anti-aircraft missile system not to be used against ballistic missiles.laws of physics makes it very hard to intercept even 1 ICBM let alone successfully stop a simultaneous attack of 5-6 ICBM's & more.unless someone develop a quantum computer which can calculate trillions of calculations in fraction of a second it is not possible to design a guidance system which can simultaneously track & intercept large no. of incoming ballistic missiles.

Nope I'm not comparing any defense system with another. Just giving proof and putting my view of point about every thing is not perfect they required quality of time to get mature with the support of failures. I know the what is Spyder and Arrow defense system. After reading the our conversation I think we got confused I was talking something as you were on ICBM.

As I mentioned earlier things need time. Lets have a quick check on how accurate are Chin Missiles.

DF-5/5A--183 ton weight--12000-15000Km range--CEP of 1km to 3.5km.
DF-4--82 ton weight-------4760km range---------CEP of 1.2km.
DF-21----15 ton weight----1500-2500Km range----CEP of 300m to 500m.
DF-3A----62 ton weight----2800-3000km range----CEP of 1km to 500m.

As one can see most of the missiles are Heavy, and are highly inaccurate with CEP of about 1km to 3km.... only latest variants of DF-21 and DF-31 are supposed to be having CEPs in the range of 200m-500m while none of the Indian missiles have a CEP of more than 50m...besides being lighter and having solid fuel which makes them suitable for prolonged storage and quick launch at a short notice while Chin missiles need to fuel with liquid propellants for two hours before its launched.. only recently have Chin developed solid fueled missiles like DF-21 and DF-31 which are not as high in numbers as compared to their liquid fueled ones which hold the bulk of their strategic Rocket force arsenal

*img707.imageshack.us/img707/5492/df5launchpad.jpg

Have a look at this missile take 2 hour to be filled with its liquid fuel and and weights 200+tons... and a CEP of 3.5-4km. It has missed its flight paths by 800m while in boost phase and have fell 1000km before the target. Such a disgrace to ICBM community and certainly a Propaganda fail.

summers said:
Sorry buddy, u r wrong in particular in your last paragraph. Though Agni V is not qualifying the distance criteria for ICBMs, but its still classified as an ICBM as per DRDO because it is satisfying all other specs of an ICBM. As far as Agni V is concerned, it can also traverse more than 5000 KM with nuclear payloads, but initial simulations and testing was done only for 5000 KM.

summers said:
Though the official media release from both Govt. and DRDO says that Agni-V is a long range range ballistic missile, but the whole world knows it as an ICBM. The Wikipedia classifies it as an ICBM. Moreover, what is of utmost importance is the fact that the test fire was of more than 5000 KM.

Agni-V, India's first ICBM test-fired successfully - Times Of India

Agni V, India's first ICBM, successfully test-fired

The Hindu : News / National : Agni-V propels India into elite ICBM club

And as i've already said earlier, it qualifies the criteria for ICBM's in all other specs except for minimum distance; its a move by Govt. of keeping it a bit short in one single criteria just to avoid unnecessary ears from all around the world thereby keeping it focused towards China.

And as you say that Agni-V is not an ICBM, then why does its test fire has created so much hustle bustle in the entire world with India joining the elite ICBM club...........??

Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile---------ICBM.

It means, a missile launched from one continent having the ability to strike targets in a different continent.

Even if official range of 5500km is taken into account with official 1500kg throw weight, A-V reaches European continent and Australia and most parts of Africa.

And when the UN-official range with reduced payload but with a 300kt nuke is considered, it will reach all continents except Americas.

Agni 5 is canistered and is actually one of the lighter missiles in its class.

Agni 5 guidance system consists of ring laser gyro-INS (inertial navigation system), optionally augmented by GPS terminal guidance with radar scene correlation that results in a CEP measured in yards! However, remember that it carries a strategic nuclear (15 KT to 250 KT) warhead, or fuel air explosives (FAE).

Also, once the MIRVs are tested on the Agni, each warhead will be guided to its target independently with its own intrinsic guidance system.

But does not means it not mobilizable, It can be launched from an 8 x 8 Tatra TELAR (Transporter erector launcher), and a Rail Mobile Launcher apart from static silos.

A

Agni 5 guidance system consists of ring laser gyro-INS (inertial navigation system), optionally augmented by GPS terminal guidance with radar scene correlation that results in a CEP measured in yards! However, remember that it carries a strategic nuclear (15 KT to 250 KT) warhead, or fuel air explosives (FAE).

Radar Scene Correlation, Fuel Air Explosives, GPS Terminal Guidance? where you did find this information.

Though the official media release from both Govt. and DRDO says that Agni-V is a long range range ballistic missile, but the whole world knows it as an ICBM. The Wikipedia classifies it as an ICBM. Moreover, what is of utmost importance is the fact that the test fire was of more than 5000 KM.

*articles.timesofindia.indiati...entry-vehicles

Agni V, India's first ICBM, successfully test-fired

*www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle3330921.ece

And as i've already said earlier, it qualifies the criteria for ICBM's in all other specs except for minimum distance; its a move by Govt. of keeping it a bit short in one single criteria just to avoid unnecessary ears from all around the world thereby keeping it focused towards China.

And as you say that Agni-V is not an ICBM, then why does its test fire has created so much hustle bustle in the entire world with India joining the elite ICBM club...........??

I wasn't exactly focusing on Agni-Vs potential capabilities, but the reason we avoid calling it "ICBM". Media can call it lot of things but its ultimately left for other countries to deduce what Agni V is really capable. what matters is the posture India has taken and India's intentions by testing this missile 5000km away.

some chinese expert called its actual range is around 8000km. Something which apparently we already know. When Saraswat stated Agni-V can launch very small satellites, one should be able to understand how far Agni-V can go. But what really matters for Indian babus is by keeping it hush hush we are behaving like good boyz. Bad boys will get spanking from Uncle Sam :lol:

which we don't want

More of a political missile, declare its range as 10,000km and you have got world wondering why India intends to target europe & australia. test it for 15000km away and you will be making different kind of statement (coz it can reach US with that range) . An improved version may be able to place small warhead into orbit and call it an orbital bombardment system, but then world will react differently to that.

Saraswat publicly was talking about A5 destroying Satellite because India desires to have such capability and test it one day when situation demands so. He was also silent on Agni-Vs maximum range because India doesn't want to advertize it.

Here is a nice WSJ article talking about Agni-V
India's Missile Warning
The threat depends mainly on the regime, not the weapon itself.

India successfully test-fired a long-range ballistic missile on Thursday capable of carrying a nuclear warhead as far as Shanghai. The event deserves more scrutiny than it's received, though not for the reasons offered by the theologians of parchment arms control.

The test marks a significant advance in global missile proliferation, which surely vindicates those in the U.S. who have pushed antimissile defenses. India's Agni 5—Agni is the Hindu god of fire—is capable of carrying MIRVed, or multiple, independently targetable, warheads. The missile also puts India closer to being able to develop antisatellite weapons, and the Agni 5 appears to be launchable from mobile platforms. All of this makes the missile a fearsome deterrent against foreign attack.

It's clear that India will eventually be able to turn the Agni 5 into an intercontinental missile capable of reaching Europe and the U.S. look at how much of experts already know Indias capabilities but are not alarmed. This is a harbinger of missile proliferation to come, and it shows that the dominance that the U.S. and Russia have long enjoyed in missile technology and the high ground of space will soon be challenged.

The launch also underscores the folly of arms-control treaties in controlling proliferation. India has never signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty even as it has become a formidable nuclear power. The world's missile technology control regime has forced India to develop its own launch and guidance technology, though we also suspect it's received help on the sly from Russia and others.

The point is that a continental power like India is going to pursue weaponry that it believes to be in its own security interests, regardless of the wishful treaties of Western diplomats. That's especially true given China's claims to Indian territory and Beijing's bullying of its neighbors.

Yet it's also worth noting that few people laid awake Thursday night worrying about this new Indian missile. A State Department spokesman called on "all nuclear-capable states to exercise restraint regarding nuclear capabilities" but added that "India has a solid nonproliferation record."

The Chinese Foreign Ministry noted that "India and China are not rivals but cooperative partners," though China is one presumptive target of the Indian missile. Pakistan, India's traditional rival whose government was advised in advance of the launch, had no immediate official response at all.

This restrained reaction is strikingly different from the global alarm over North Korea's recent failed ballistic-missile launch, to say nothing of the anxiety provoked by Iranian missile tests and nuclear program. The difference is that no one in the West believes that India poses an aggressive military threat. India is a robust democracy whose nuclear weapons are intended as a deterrent, and not even hawks in the People's Liberation Army can credibly argue that Delhi would contemplate a nuclear first strike.

The crucial nonproliferation point is that the threat is less from the weapons than from the kind of regime that holds them. The arms control evangelists, including many in the Obama Administration, believe that the spread of weaponry is its own threat, whether the finger on the button belongs to David Cameron, Kim Jong Eun or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

But the real threat is that weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them will be acquired by tyrants who lack any domestic restraints and might well use them to dominate or destroy their neighbors. The world will be a safer place if fewer nations have nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. But the danger grows exponentially when those weapons are in the hands of a Hitler, Brezhnev or Iran's Revolutionary Guards.

The Indian launch might also cause some soul-searching in Beijing. Chinese officials sometimes sound as if their bullying regional policy will eventually have all of the Asia-Pacific region under their sway. But in practice the result has been the opposite, driving Japan, the Philippines, even Vietnam and Burma closer to the U.S. as a countervailing regional power. India's missile launch is another sign that its neighbors feel the need to deter any Chinese aggression.

As for the U.S., India's test underscores the need for robust investment in missile and satellite defenses with deployments before genuine threats arrive. It also shows the need to redouble the efforts to quarantine and deny WMD to rogue states, in contrast to treaties that provide an illusion of nonproliferation

DF-5/5A--183 ton weight--12000-15000Km range--CEP of 1km to 3.5km.
DF-4--82 ton weight-------4760km range---------CEP of 1.2km.
DF-21----15 ton weight----1500-2500Km range----CEP of 300m to 500m.
DF-3A----62 ton weight----2800-3000km range----CEP of 1km to 500m.

As one can see most of the missiles are Heavy, and are highly inaccurate with CEP of about 1km to 3km.... only latest variants of DF-21 and DF-31 are supposed to be having CEPs in the range of 200m-500m while none of the Indian missiles have a CEP of more than 50m...besides being lighter and having solid fuel which makes them suitable for prolonged storage and quick launch at a short notice while Chin missiles need to fuel with liquid propellants for two hours before its launched.. only recently have Chin developed solid fueled missiles like DF-21 and DF-31 which are not as high in numbers as compared to their liquid fueled ones which hold the bulk of their strategic Rocket force arsenal

much of the old ones i think are inspired by Soviet Designs which are mostly heavy liquid fuelled based in hardened silos. DF-31 development began rougly when Soviets were also moving to solid fuelled road mobile missiles.
chinese have geographical advantage as far as India is concerned. Can reach much of Indian cities with DF-21s, which they have in few good numbers. DF-31/41 is meant for US. China also has higher capacity warheads to offset the need for accuracy. It doesn't matter if CEP is 1km when they have megaton warheads.

Interesting........................

Russia to Provide "Seeker" Tech for Agni-V

Moscow to provide ‘seeker’ tech for Agni-V, capable of hitting target beyond 10,000 km

India is all set to join the select group of nations capable of launching nuclear strikes across continent. With Russia ready to provide the cutting-edge “seeker” technology for India’s Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the country is ready to flaunt its nuclear might in a big way by year end when the ICBM will undergo its maiden launch.

The development of the ICBM had been delayed because no country was ready to provide India the crucial ‘seekers’ technology, which enables the missile to home in on the target with pinpoint precision. The ICBM will be capable of carrying nuclear payload and has a strike range of 10,000 km.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has indigenously developed the ‘seeker’ technology for Agni-I, Agni-II and Agni-III intermediate range missiles. But the DRDO was not in a position to develop the next stage technology and efforts to import it had been futile so far.

The breakthrough with Russia for the most critical system of the ICBM came after extensive talks between delegations of the two countries during Defence Minister AK Antony’s three-day visit to Moscow earlier this week. The Indian delegation comprised senior missile scientists of the DRDO besides others, and Moscow agreed to help New Delhi for the ICBM project, sources said.

The two sides met to review progress on various defence projects under the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Co-operation set up a decade back. The Defence Ministers of the two countries head this body and meet once a year either in Moscow or New Delhi.

Russia, UK, the US, France and China are the only countries in the world to have ICBMs which can hit a target beyond 10,000 km. India has successfully developed intermediate range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons and hitting a target less than 4,000 km.

With the successful launch of the Agni-III two years back, the Indian scientists displayed their capability to even develop ICBM. However, their efforts over the last two years or so to go ahead with Angi-V launch could not progress due to non-availability of ‘seeker’ techology.

“Given discriminatory attitude against India by some advanced countries, including the US vis-à-vis sharing advanced technology over the last two decades, it was tough going for the missile project scientists till Russia agreed to come to India’s rescue,” officials said.

They said Russia was more than willing to share technical know-how with India for its missile programme and time tested defence relations between the two countries spanning more than four decades again produced positive results, sources said.

In another important development, Russia will also share its advanced GPS system for military purposes with India. The US has been reluctant to do so despite repeated assurances by Washington that it is ready to open its doors for hi-tech.

Incidentally, the other country to provide frontline technology in missiles and avionics is Israel and its sophisticated radars helped the DRDO carry out the successful test of Agni-III, sources pointed out.
Russia to Provide "Seeker" Tech for Agni-V ICBM

Moscow to provide ‘seeker’ tech for Agni-V, capable of hitting target beyond 10,000 km

India is all set to join the select group of nations capable of launching nuclear strikes across continent. With Russia ready to provide the cutting-edge “seeker” technology for India’s Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the country is ready to flaunt its nuclear might in a big way by year end when the ICBM will undergo its maiden launch.

The development of the ICBM had been delayed because no country was ready to provide India the crucial ‘seekers’ technology, which enables the missile to home in on the target with pinpoint precision. The ICBM will be capable of carrying nuclear payload and has a strike range of 10,000 km.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has indigenously developed the ‘seeker’ technology for Agni-I, Agni-II and Agni-III intermediate range missiles. But the DRDO was not in a position to develop the next stage technology and efforts to import it had been futile so far.

The breakthrough with Russia for the most critical system of the ICBM came after extensive talks between delegations of the two countries during Defence Minister AK Antony’s three-day visit to Moscow earlier this week. The Indian delegation comprised senior missile scientists of the DRDO besides others, and Moscow agreed to help New Delhi for the ICBM project, sources said.

The two sides met to review progress on various defence projects under the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Co-operation set up a decade back. The Defence Ministers of the two countries head this body and meet once a year either in Moscow or New Delhi.

Russia, UK, the US, France and China are the only countries in the world to have ICBMs which can hit a target beyond 10,000 km. India has successfully developed intermediate range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons and hitting a target less than 4,000 km.

With the successful launch of the Agni-III two years back, the Indian scientists displayed their capability to even develop ICBM. However, their efforts over the last two years or so to go ahead with Angi-V launch could not progress due to non-availability of ‘seeker’ techology.

“Given discriminatory attitude against India by some advanced countries, including the US vis-à-vis sharing advanced technology over the last two decades, it was tough going for the missile project scientists till Russia agreed to come to India’s rescue,” officials said.

They said Russia was more than willing to share technical know-how with India for its missile programme and time tested defence relations between the two countries spanning more than four decades again produced positive results, sources said.

In another important development, Russia will also share its advanced GPS system for military purposes with India. The US has been reluctant to do so despite repeated assurances by Washington that it is ready to open its doors for hi-tech.

Incidentally, the other country to provide frontline technology in missiles and avionics is Israel and its sophisticated radars helped the DRDO carry out the successful test of Agni-III, sources pointed out.
Russia To Provide "Seeker" Tech For Agni-V ICBM ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

W

@NIGHTMARE,though very informative your post is quite misleading & assuming in nature.i will begin shortly but first let's just for a moment set aside all the info/technical details/...etc & simply using common sense do you really believe that whatever shortcomings you posted in chinese missiles were not already considered by chinese military & they did nothing to rectify these in over 2 decades when today they are considered as the biggest security challenge to US might in Asian region even according to credible US defense sources.

it is correct that earliest chinese missiles had poor CEP but this is not the case anymore.the DF21 whose CEP you posted as 300-500m is 30-40m(DF21C revealed in 2006) & if this is not enough chinese have reportedly developed and tested world's 1st "aircraft carrier killer missile" which is really something because hitting a moving aircraft carrier in ocean requires maneuverable reentry vehicles (MaRVs) with some kind of terminal guidance system with a very low CEP so this should put to rest any theories about chinese not having one of the world's finest missile guidance system.

Agni-V: Is India counting its chickens too early? - www.daily.bhaskar.com

Commodore (retd) C Uday Bhaskar, former director of the National Maritime Foundation said,"China has been working on the missile technology before 20 years than India and we are at a very early stage of ICBM. Agni-V will take few more years to get fully operational. So, we have to cover a long distance before we come at par with China in terms of missile prowess."

as already stated by others before china is ahead of india in every defense aspect whether missiles or planes & this point is not even worth debatable by any defense expert worth his or her salt.thinking otherwise is just living in dreams.i agree agni V is a major milestone & an effective deterrence against china but that's it.it does not mean India has same or even close missile capabilities as that of china.deterrence is not to be confused with capability because if it is then even north korea has comparable military strength to USA.

P.S.btw guidance system is capable of providing sub-200 metre circular error probable (CEP) accuracy at max range for the Agni V as of now.
IBNLive : Saurav Jha's Blog : Trajectory of fire: Agni V

A

whitestar_999 said:
Agni-V: Is India counting its chickens too early? - www.daily.bhaskar.com
Commodore (retd) C Uday Bhaskar, former director of the National Maritime Foundation said,"China has been working on the missile technology before 20 years than India and we are at a very early stage of ICBM. Agni-V will take few more years to get fully operational. So, we have to cover a long distance before we come at par with China in terms of missile prowess."

Its absolutely unfair to compare with Chinese missile program when we just tested a 5000km range missile.

Its like comparing Chinese program with US or Russian one and calling them decades behind. There is no comparison in the kind of resources invested, path chosen, challenges faced, threat profile, political desire & requirements.

its the challenges India had to face and choices we had made that resulted present stage. IMO we were capable of coming out with operational ICBM in 80s or 90s if we went all out but that would offend group of countries. US pressure, Project Valiant Failure, MTCR, ISRO being only for peaceful purposes.

Traditionally being non-aligned to any SuperPower and yet afraid of offending them, India always ended up somewhere in middle.

just think about, we are only country who are able to test a missile upto 5000km range, able to send strong message to china, yet doesn't offend any other country, instead get some praise from US for non-proliferation record and yet maintain strategic relationship with Russia. Europe was silent, so was Japan and many other countries who would otherwise raise alarm. This doesn't happen with China, Nkorea, Iran.

coming to capabilies, Agni-V is the vehicle, and around it you have build technologies.

MIRV, SLBM, MaRV will come later, but Agni-V is the basic defining milestone for many reasons. Agni-III was the actual start where we built large 2m dia solid rocket motors.

Agni-V milestone can be compared to 1974 nuclear test or 1980 SLV-3 Launch when India sent its first rocket into space.

to be on par with P5 countries, SLBM, MIRV & ASAT are needed. Its good to know DRDO is in the process. It would be interesting how SLBMs will be designed, it would need more composites, further miniaturization, reducin height of the motors to fit the inside sub tube.

P.S.btw guidance system is capable of providing sub-200 metre circular error probable (CEP) accuracy at max range for the Agni V as of now.

DRDO press release states it as few meters of accuracy. We have to speculate how much few meters would be.

as already stated by others before china is ahead of india in every defense aspect whether missiles or planes & this point is not even worth debatable by any defense expert worth his or her salt.thinking otherwise is just living in dreams.i agree agni V is a major milestone & an effective deterrence against china but that's it.it does not mean India has same or even close missile capabilities as that of china.deterrence is not to be confused with capability because if it is then even north korea has comparable military strength to USA.

north korea doesn't have vehicle that can reach US, they had attempted but failed including the latest attempt. Even if Koreans manage successful test, The so called US Missile Defense could be quite good against that. A better example will be what DF-31 means to China against US is pretty much what Agni-V means to India against China. mobility, canisters, short-reaction time, solid rocket motors but MIRVs will come later for A5.

As far as SLBM is concerned, it will be most capable Second strike option, which is why India desires the most. A long range SLBM with few MIRVs launched from submarine underwater will be culmination of indias missile program.

Learned a lot of stuff. Thanx guys!

KDroid said:
Learned a lot of stuff. Thanx guys!

That's the point :razz:

W

@ajaymailed,my previous post was a reply to @NIGHTMARE post according to which indian missile program is superior to chinese one & i just posted facts/statements to contradict this.as for comparing indian & chinese programs again i posted that quote to emphasize the point that even indian defense experts are in no illusion regarding chinese missile capabilities.

as for deterrence & capability i was pointing out the fact that even if India now has Agni V still China has much better missile infrastructure.it has more missiles & hundreds of kms of underground tunnel network to ensure much better survival rate of its delivery systems even against USA.if this can not be counted as more capability than India has then i don't know what can.

A

whitestar_999 said:
as for deterrence & capability i was pointing out the fact that even if India now has Agni V still China has much better missile infrastructure.it has more missiles & hundreds of kms of underground tunnel network to ensure much better survival rate of its delivery systems even against USA.if this can not be counted as more capability than India has then i don't know what can.

your right about that part, much of Chinese systems are meant for deterring US while Agni-V allows India build force to deter China. Hence the difference in capabilities. China simply has more powerful enemies, far away. We may never need such numbers and infrastructure anyway as we were trying to get MIRVs & SLBMs in future.
Its like saying Pakistan missiles capabilities much behind Indias, but that doesn't stop them from reaching anywhere in India with their missiles. Just like Agni-V is no use against Pakistan, essentially an overkill, same is with DF-31/41 or older chinese ICBMs, China has already covered India their df-21s

101gamzer said:
That's the point

i just wanted mention, the ultimate thing which matters in all this charade of nuclear weapons, ballistic is that they are supposed to help maintain peace. Agni V is supposed to help india maintain stable & peaceful relations with china. we may spark off a costly tense competition but if that means we can avoid any clashes then it does probably make sense to have such capability. China should be able believe agni V is no pushover and should think million times before doing anything stupid
peace inturn means we can focus more on economy and prosperity.

i

the ultimate thing which matters in all this charade of nuclear weapons, ballistic is that they are supposed to help maintain peace. Agni V is supposed to help india maintain stable & peaceful relations with china. we may spark off a costly tense competition but if that means we can avoid any clashes then it does probably make sense to have such capability. China should be able believe agni V is no pushover and should think million times before doing anything stupid
peace inturn means we can focus more on economy and prosperity.

added rep for this point.

.this is what i wanted to tell in my last post in this thread but you did put it in a better way and conveyed the message in a better way.

ajaymailed said:
Radar Scene Correlation, Fuel Air Explosives, GPS Terminal Guidance? where you did find this information.

India has developed Ring Laser Gyro INS, Micro Navigation System, etc earlier on the Agni 4. According to the DRDO, this missile is one of its kind. It showcased many new technologies for the first time and is a quantum leap in terms of missile technology. The missile is light in weight and has two stages of solid propulsion and a payload with re-entry heat shield. The composite rocket motor technology, which has been used for the first time, has also given excellent performance. The missile system is equipped with modern and compact avionics with redundancy to provide high level of reliability.The indigenous ring laser gyros-based high-accuracy INS (Rins) and micro navigation system (Mings) complementing each other in redundant mode, have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time.

An Agni-V Leap Forward | Flashpoints

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: TERMINAL GUIDANCE: Made in India seekers dressed up for fire play

ajaymailed said:
much of the old ones i think are inspired by Soviet Designs which are mostly heavy liquid fuelled based in hardened silos. DF-31 development began rougly when Soviets were also moving to solid fuelled road mobile missiles.chinese have geographical advantage as far as India is concerned. Can reach much of Indian cities with DF-21s, which they have in few good numbers. DF-31/41 is meant for US. China also has higher capacity warheads to offset the need for accuracy. It doesn't matter if CEP is 1km when they have megaton warheads.

Agni V does the job of striking Beijing; it is a China-specific missile, nothing more. India doesn't need to threaten anyone else, just China. :-D

joking

Chinese DF-4 and DF-5 is not even comparable to Indian Prithvi series missile. A missile which take 3 TELs 2hours of refueling and then blasts off at launch. DF-41 is MIRV. Take down Delhi and 9 surround cities one go. Still there are no proofs that China tested MIRV...maybe they'll take few of our cities as well. Even DF-31 had a range of 13000km..... and Agni-V only 5000 km..... If it has 13000 km range what it supposed to do with India, we aren't 12000km away from china. As china has strong force we should ensure our safety it doesn't mean we are wishing a war with China.... Why china modernizing its armed forces in so hurry.... is china going to fight with USA might. In my opinion CEP matter DF-31 CEP : 500 m vs Agni 5 CEP : 40 m.

When China launched its own ICBM in 70s, it had more poverty than current Indian levels.

Indeed even today China after US has biggest budget in military but 150 000 000 people live under poverty in China. So instead of preaching India to China also should concentrate on eradicate its own poverty. I think these so called experts in global times think that China is some developed nation when reality is China is also a developing country having 100th rank in HDI.

But one thing is right, Yes India's missiles dwarf's in front of China. They have ICBMs up to 15000 km while we have just 5000 km range. But India is enemy are not 10000 km away, so it is ok. We are only the 5th nation on the entire world to have this technology. Isn't that an achievement?

A

But one thing is right, Yes India's missiles dwarf's in front of China. They have ICBMs up to 15000 km while we have just 5000 km range. But India is enemy are not 10000 km away, so it is ok. We are only the 5th nation on the entire world to have this technology. Isn't that an achievement?

We will probably stop comparing ranges once India comes out with long range SLBM because with nuclear submarine as platform, we can reach every country and every city in the world including US, Europe and even south america. ofcoz messing with US means their attack submarines will be make circles around our sub. For India what really matters is second strike effectiveness of SLBM.

KDroid said:
Learned a lot of stuff. Thanx guys!

if you wanna learn about space & missile programs. I suggest you watch or read about the mother of all duels. US Vs Soviet Union. especially in 1960s and 70s. awesome, titanic, breathtaking, spectacular- got no words to describe. the intense competition, the supreme importance attached to going ahead & beating the rival. Nowadays the seriousness & importance attached to rocket research is almost nil today compared to what happened in 60s & 70s.

T

^^ rofl

Found this pic

*i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/ashwinm/PaksShaheen-1Amissiletest-Abehindthesceneslook-TheUnRealTimes.jpg

Can't stop laughing! especially at obama's face

One guess who is in Red cap ?

S

Its India's biggest victory in terms of the invention of latest technology and it will really scare the other countries especially Pakistan and China which thinks that they can scare us by their unfair plans.

NIGHTMARE said:
One guess who is in Red cap ?

T

lol @ the Pic. Thanks for sharing.

ajaymailed said:
i just wanted mention, the ultimate thing which matters in all this charade of nuclear weapons, ballistic is that they are supposed to help maintain peace. Agni V is supposed to help india maintain stable & peaceful relations with china. we may spark off a costly tense competition but if that means we can avoid any clashes then it does probably make sense to have such capability. China should be able believe agni V is no pushover and should think million times before doing anything stupid
peace inturn means we can focus more on economy and prosperity.

India's Infrastructure is so poor compared to China they have underground tunnels, bridges etc we need to improve this to utilize the full potential of this missile BTW we are really far away from them in Missile technology they have varieties of ICBM , BM,CM,AS,AA,SA missile

we will r@pe(Uncle Sam will jump in too) Pakistan with our EXTRA-LARGE :wink:

ICBM