Christians, Hindus, Sikhs forced to flee Swat: Catholic Church

Sat, Apr 25 06:10 PM

New Delhi, April 24 (IANS) The minorities in Pakistan's Swat Valley have been forced to flee as the Taliban have imposed a tax on non-Muslims, Pakistan Catholic Bishops' Conference (PCBC) president Archbishop Lawrence John Saldanha has said, urging the Pakistani president and prime minister to intervene.

Expressing concern over the government's move to allow the imposition of Sharia laws in parts of the North West Frontier Province, the archbishop said in his letter to the Pakistani leaders: 'We note with sorrow that your government has failed to take stock of the concerns of civil society in Pakistan in your decision.

'Christian, Hindu and Sikh families have been forced to flee because the Taliban imposed on them Jizia, a tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule,' he said.

The archbishop's letter was released here by the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI).

After parliament had approved the measure, Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari April 13 signed the notification for enforcing Sharia laws in Swat and six other districts of the NWFP that are collectively known as the Malakand division.

'Besides jeopardising the socio-economic and cultural growth in Swat and Malakand, the decision has also given legal sanction to the diktats of the trigger-happy Taliban,' the archbishop's letter said.

The resolution 'erodes constitutional protections for minorities and women,' Saldanha, who is the archbishop of Lahore, said in the letter.

'Now minority communities in the province are forced to endure unemployment, intimidation and migration,' the letter noted.

Source: *in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090425/812/tnl-christians-hindus-sikhs-forced-to-fl.html

Did you know that hindu girls are kidnapped by Muslim extremists and married off forcefully after being converted to islam, and their parents given no permission to visit them stating that it was a voluntary action ?

MetalheadGautham said:
Did you know that hindu girls are kidnapped by Muslim extremists and married off forcefully after being converted to islam, and their parents given no permission to visit them stating that it was a voluntary action ?

Agree with first part but second part is like this, once they are converted to Islam then the parents have no custody over girls. So even if they want to, they cannot do anything.

Read about Blasphemy laws in Pakistan.

not just in swat, it has been happening all over pakistan. its only more explicit in swat.

i wonder why the minorities continue to stay there.

we give our minorities quotas and other privileges while pakistan's minorities get NOTHING.

its time for the US to into pakistan and seize their nukes. obama cant keep pumping in money forever. its time to isolate that country.

nix said:
not just in swat, it has been happening all over pakistan. its only more explicit in swat.

i wonder why the minorities continue to stay there.

we give our minorities quotas and other privileges while pakistan's minorities get NOTHING.

its time for the US to into pakistan and seize their nukes. obama cant keep pumping in money forever. its time to isolate that country.

Isolate the whole country just becoz of few mad people?If thats the logic india should also be added in that list.Our media is so busy in covering what Rakhi Sawant and The Great Khali are doing that they forget to cover all these news of injustices done with dalits,muslims,christians and even hindus in some part of our country and people think that india is shining and we are developing and all that nonsense.Ask yourself and look around dont these things happen in india also?
And i have seen many pakistanis worrying about the indian muslims conditions in india (even though their feeling is fake and they dont give a damn) and us indians always say in reply "its our matter mind your own business".Same thing applies to them also even if they are hindu,sikh or christians but they are pakistani first.So its none of india's business.They are not the people who went from india to do a job there.They are not NRI's.They are pakistanis and its their own matter.

just wondering: why is south asia in such a $hitty mess?

confused said:
just wondering: why is south asia in such a $hitty mess?

Because of USA.

ok, what has USA got to do with whats going on in Sri Lanka???

agree, abt the afghanistan part, but we cant blame the US for everything.
our politicians gotta grow some balls....and start taking some tough stands, otherwise we are gonna get clobbered from all sides.

confused said:
ok, what has USA got to do with whats going on in Sri Lanka???

agree, abt the afghanistan part, but we cant blame the US for everything.
our politicians gotta grow some balls....and start taking some tough stands, otherwise we are gonna get clobbered from all sides.

And you forgot Iraq?

thousands of innocents lost their lives.Same with afghanistan and in NWFP and FATA now they are all gearing up for revenge.

Taliban are a threat to humanity. I was watching the movie 'Lakshya' on 9X yesterday for the upteenth time. These terrorists should be swept off the land similarly as Hrithik and co. killed the Pakistani terrorists in the movie.

digitized said:
Taliban are a threat to humanity. I was watching the movie 'Lakshya' on 9X yesterday for the upteenth time. These terrorists should be swept off the land similarly as Hrithik and co. killed the Pakistani terrorists in the movie.

And oh i forgot to add indian movies along with the indian media.How easily they refer to the neighbouring countries in their movies and creating hatred.

People stop comparing movies to reality, read history. I know because people tend to forget history, we are in such a situation. Indians have short term memory.

gaurav_indian said:
Because of USA.

we are, what we are only because of ourself. if they are the best, its because they have secured their interests. real men own up.

no offence, but the truth is, we're terribly bad at foriegn policy. we cant even clean up the maoist terrorists roaming inside our country.

sri lanka is continuing with the offensive because they have china's permission. china's sphere of influence is increasing while our politicians bleed the country. they have given weapons to sri lanka.

india on the other hand has never taken a solid stand on that issue. non alignment policy has not benefitted india at all. govt cannot fully support the lankans because we are bound by regional parties. democracy is a suicide pact.

@nix thats what i was saying we should look at ourselves first rather than looking at our neighbours and feeling good about ourselves we have the same problem.And there is no need to generalize them on the basis of few bad people which exists in our own country also.
And talking of history people do have a short term memory in india.How easily they can forget Gujrat riots in 2002 and the treatment which north indians gets in Mumbai from shiv sena and raj thackrey.So there is no need to read what happened 50 years ago.People dont even remember what happened 5-6 years ago.

gaurav_indian said:
And oh i forgot to add indian movies along with the indian media.How easily they refer to the neighbouring countries in their movies and creating hatred.

And what has Pakistan not done since the last 62 years not to create hatred among the common Indian man? Decades and decades of talk between Indian and Pak governments- and what is the result?-Terrorism still rules. And what is this business of POK? J&K was always a part of India. Did 'Lakshya' show anything illogical? Last 60 odd years have yeilded nothing. It's time to spot out the terrorist camps and remove them for good, just as they showed in the movie.

gaurav_indian said:
@nix thats what i was saying we should look at ourselves first rather than looking at our neighbours and feeling good about ourselves we have the same problem.And there is no need to generalize them on the basis of few bad people which exists in our own country also.
And talking of history people do have a short term memory in india.How easily they can forget Gujrat riots in 2002 and the treatment which north indians gets in Mumbai from shiv sena and raj thackrey.So there is no need to read what happened 50 years ago.People dont even remember what happened 5-6 years ago.

What is there to feel good about ourselves ? Same asslols come here and kill people. Isn't it a concern for us too ?

I agree with gaurav though. We should first look at terrorists in our own backyard before looking for them and talking about them elsewhere. Yes I am refering to a certain organisation called RSS and another called CPI(Maoist).

ichi said:
What is there to feel good about ourselves ? Same asslols come here and kill people. Isn't it a concern for us too ?

They come here without local support?Really how easy it is?Buddy any bangladeshi can cross the indian border by giving a bribe of just Rs 50.Do some research.

digitized said:
And what has Pakistan not done since the last 62 years not to create hatred among the common Indian man? Decades and decades of talk between Indian and Pak governments- and what is the result?-Terrorism still rules. And what is this business of POK? J&K was always a part of India. Did 'Lakshya' show anything illogical? Last 60 odd years have yeilded nothing. It's time to spot out the terrorist camps and remove them for good, just as they showed in the movie.

Life isnt as easy as you think.

And about Pakistan creating hatred towards indian people.We arent helping in that department also.Dont you know movies like Lakshya or whatever cr@p you watch are also watched by pakistanis.These movies and clips of anti muslim speeches given by Varun Gandhi and other jokers of indian politics will be shown to small kids both here and in our neighbour countries that muslims are living in a hell.It does create hatred.

RSS,Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena,Ram Sena,VHP will you finish them too?Kamaal Khan released a film "Deshdrohi" based on the reality of whats happening in mumbai to north indians it was banned in maharashtra becoz it showed the truth.Did you watch it?Have you watched Black Friday?

MetalheadGautham said:
I agree with gaurav though. We should first look at terrorists in our own backyard before looking for them and talking about them elsewhere. Yes I am refering to a certain organisation called RSS and another called CPI(Maoist).

lol people are so busy in pointing fingers at others look at this report now tell me are these thing possible without local support?And what happened to samjhauta express case?

Trinamool armed us to fight in Nandigram: Naxal leader

*www.keralanext.com/news/2009/04/27/article104.asp

gaurav_indian said:
They come here without local support?Really how easy it is?Buddy any bangladeshi can cross the indian border by giving a bribe of just Rs 50.Do some research.

Where did I say that they come her without support ? Our government itself support them, providing pension to terrorists

It's a win win situation for them, become martyr and we will ensure that your families provide more soon.

Why even Rs. 50 when we have not sealed our borders properly. Atleast Israel is better than Indian in strategic planning.

Jai ho !

gaurav_indian said:
lol people are so busy in pointing fingers at others look at this report now tell me are these thing possible without local support?And what happened to samjhauta express case?

Trinamool armed us to fight in Nandigram: Naxal leader

*www.keralanext.com/news/2009/04/27/article104.asp

exactly. The political class in India is responsible for a lot of terrorist activities which were done by groups formed MOSTLY as a result of vote bank politics.

gaurav_indian said:
Life isnt as easy as you think.

And about Pakistan creating hatred towards indian people.We arent helping in that department also.Dont you know movies like Lakshya or whatever cr@p you watch are also watched by pakistanis.These movies and clips of anti muslim speeches given by Varun Gandhi and other jokers of indian politics will be shown to small kids both here and in our neighbour countries that muslims are living in a hell.It does create hatred.

RSS,Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena,Ram Sena,VHP will you finish them too?Kamaal Khan released a film "Deshdrohi" based on the reality of whats happening in mumbai to north indians it was banned in maharashtra becoz it showed the truth.Did you watch it?Have you watched Black Friday?

Yes. I have watched Black Friday. Very well, if 60 years of talks have yeilded nothing, we have to prepare ourselves for these terrorists for the next 100 years and more. And then some random people will come from time to time and create events like 26/11 Mumbai. Everyone knows who is responsible for 26/11 and yet we are feeding Kasab for the last 6 months on the taxpayer's money. Action in the lines of what SriLankan army is doing to LTTE, or what Israel did to Hamas is most appropriate.

I don't know what cr@p you are talking about...so you are telling we will continue to discuss for the next 100 years just like we were doing in the last 60 years.

We are going off-topic. We need to analyze fast that is Taliban doing any good? And then take immediate action.

US and Russia are able to forward its interests in Asian countries only because we love to fight amongst ourselves

India is fighting with Pakistan
China (People's republic of China) is fighting with Taiwan (Republic of China)
South Korea with North Korea
Iran with Iraq (under Saddam Hussain)
China with India
Sri Lanka and LTTE

No wonder groups like Taliban are able to destabilise countries and take over rule of that country

And the political class in india enjoy Z+ security (Elite black cats with fancy guns) while people (police) who are responsible for guarding our country use World War II rifles

Here is something to chew:

India pays for Nehru's folly

Republic Day is a day of celebration, but it also has its poignant moments, especially when the President confers gallantry awards on brave soldiers who lay down their lives in the line of duty. Often those who are honoured are young men in uniform who make the supreme sacrifice while pushing back militants trained in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and sent into Jammu & Kashmir to indulge in murder and mayhem. While we salute the latest batch of martyrs, we need to reflect on the events that led to Pakistan occupying one-third of the State and setting up the base to carry on a relentless proxy war against us.

One such event, which has cost the nation dear, was India's fateful decision to complain to the United Nations when Pakistan invaded Jammu & Kashmir in October 1947. Two books that have hit the stands in recent weeks throw fresh light on this historic blunder committed by India's first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru. While leaders like Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, the then Home Minister, wanted firm and swift military action to throw out the invaders, Nehru's pusillanimity led him to beseech the world body and later to meekly submit to the UN Security Council's advice to end military action. The ceasefire, ordered by Nehru, prevented the Indian Army from completely regaining the lost territory and was instrumental in the creation of a geographical entity that is known the world over as Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

The fact that Nehru's moves vis-à-vis Kashmir caused much disappointment and even anger among political leaders and Army commanders is reinforced by new evidence available in Air Marshal (rtd) KC Cariappa's eponymous biography of his father Field Marshal KM Cariappa, India's most distinguished soldier, and Prof Makkhan Lal's Secular Politics, Communal Agenda -- A history of Politics in India from 1860 to 1953, the first in a three-part series that covers events up to 2007.

According to Air Marshal Cariappa, the Government went against the advice of both military commanders who were directly involved in the operations: "Father was then the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Command, and Maj Gen Thimayya was the operational commander. They were convinced that capture of Muzzafarabad, now the capital of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, was imminent. The Army, however, was ordered to suspend all offensive operations with effect from January1, 1949 even though the enemy continued fighting." Field Marshal Cariappa had later said that the Army had its 'tail up' and was "confident of clearing most of Kashmir and re-investing Gilgit". But orders were received to cease fire. "He ( Field Marshal Cariappa) said the Army was very disappointed by the decision, but orders were orders."

This has been corroborated by other sources as well. For example, long years ago S Nijalingappa, former President of the Congress, had told this writer of his chance meeting with Maj Gen Thimmayya at Teen Murti Bhavan, the official residence of the Prime Minister, around the time Nehru was contemplating a ceasefire. According to Nijalingappa, the General told Nehru that the Army needed two weeks more to regain lost territory but the Prime Minister was adamant. The General found Nehru's attitude inexplicable. He left Teen Murti Bhavan in disgust.

Air Marshal Cariappa also reproduces Lt Gen SM Shrinagesh's comment on the Jammu & Kashmir fiasco. According to him, "Lt Gen Cariappa was ordered not to carry out offensive operations which would threaten Pakistan's security" and the air force was told not to attack vital bridges used by Pakistan! "The language which the RIAF used on receiving these instructions had to be heard to be believed."

Air Marshal Cariappa says a few years hence his father asked Nehru the reason for the ceasefire. Nehru, on hindsight, conceded that the ceasefire order ought to have been delayed. He reportedly told Cariappa, "Quite frankly, looking back on it now, I think we should have given you a few more days, ten or fifteen days more. Things would have been different."

Many of Nehru's colleagues in Government were also distressed by the complaint to the UN and all that followed. This included Sardar Patel, BR Ambedkar and several others.

In his book, Prof Makkhan Lal says that though Pakistan invaded Jammu & Kashmir on October 22, 1947, Nehru had information in September about Pakistan's aggressive designs but did not initiate any pre-emptive action. Prof Lal says that but for Sardar Patel's decisive action (getting the Maharaja to sign the Instrument of Accession and air-lifting troops to Srinagar in the early hours of October 27), India would have lost Jammu & Kashmir forever.

This view is reinforced by the reminiscences of VP Menon, who was then Secretary in the States Department, and NV Gadgil, a Minister in the Nehru Cabinet. Prof Lal quotes Gadgil as having said, "I am afraid Nehru is responsible for the prolongation of the problem through his willingness to compromise at every stage... Had Vallabhbhai been the man to handle the Kashmir question, he would have settled it long ago. At least, he would never have settled with a partial control of Jammu & Kashmir. He would have occupied the whole of the State and would never have allowed it to be elevated to international importance."

As we grieve with the families of those brave soldiers who lay down their lives defending India's territorial integrity, we need to ask ourselves as to what we need to do to put an end to this constant bleeding that Pakistan is subjecting us to. We can make a beginning by getting to the truth about Jammu & Kashmir. In order to do this, we must trash the mythology that prevails about Nehru's infallibility and greatness. We must also firmly reject attempts by historians patronised by the Nehru-Gandhi family to dwarf the contribution of Sardar Patel, Ambedkar, Field Marshal Cariappa, Gen Thimmayya, VP Menon and others, in their effort to sustain the myths they have created about Nehru.

While chronicling the integration of 554 princely states to form the Indian Union, Menon had said that since the time of Mahmud Ghazni, for eight centuries India has been subjected to periodical invasions from the North-West. Ghazni led 17 of these incursions. Keeping up this tradition, the very first act of the new state of Pakistan was to launch an invasion from the North-West.

Yet, Nehru, much against the advice of military commanders, allowed Pakistan to retain part of the looted territory, thereby jeopardising India's security forever. Recalling this, Menon warned, "A nation that forgets its history or its geography does so at its peril". It is never too late to heed this warning. But in order to do so, we must first get our history right and then remember it.

digitized said:
Yes. I have watched Black Friday. Very well, if 60 years of talks have yeilded nothing, we have to prepare ourselves for these terrorists for the next 100 years and more. And then some random people will come from time to time and create events like 26/11 Mumbai. Everyone knows who is responsible for 26/11 and yet we are feeding Kasab for the last 6 months on the taxpayer's money. Action in the lines of what SriLankan army is doing to LTTE, or what Israel did to Hamas is most appropriate.

I don't know what cr@p you are talking about...so you are telling we will continue to discuss for the next 100 years just like we were doing in the last 60 years.

We are going off-topic. We need to analyze fast that is Taliban doing any good? And then take immediate action.

Hello taliban is in pakistan not in india how can we take immediate action against taliban?Looks like you are watching too much IBN7 and india TV.
People of pakistan are also losing their lives in a so called War on terror backed by USA.Innocents are losing their relatives in drone attacks by US everyday on NWFP and balochistan.And in revenge people are joining this taliban.US is responsible for all this Talibaan thing.They created it.

Hillary: US Is Responsible For The Taliban

*sweetness-light.com/archive/hillary-us-responsible-for-taliban-existence

I don't know what cr@p you are talking about...so you are telling we will continue to discuss for the next 100 years just like we were doing in the last 60 years.

As long as these politicians are in our country nothing will happen.And this applies to pakistani politicians also.When some hindu is involved in terrorist activities we keep saying terrorism has no religion.But when it comes to pakistan you guys start generalizing as if every pakistani has a AK47 in their house.Remember they are also losing their brothers and sisters in bomb blasts and attacks.Why dont you say terrorism has no religion then?

Action in the lines of what SriLankan army is doing to LTTE, or what Israel did to Hamas is most appropriate.

So you want india to start a war?Do you have any idea what will happen after that?What will happen to our economy?As i said get real its not a movie.And india dont have the guts to start army operation like that.

ichi said:
Here is something to chew:

No surprise at all.

gaurav_indian said:
Hillary: US Is Responsible For The Taliban

I agree that US helped in making of Taliban but it is not completely responsible for its birth and upbringing.

1. Fundamental Islam is the first step in its making.
2. US just tried to take the advantage of this, to create a potential Vietnam for Russia.
3. After that Pakistan took the responsibility of fostering it, it bred terrorists with the help of Saudi Arabia.
4. 9/11 happened, now this time US realized that the fundamentalism concept has backfired on them. Terrorist attacks were happening well before that but never got such an escalated call. World gets to know the concept of jihad.
5. Pakistan had to choose Taliban (the one it pampered ) or US. They chose later reluctantly.
6. Now this time Taliban got a clear cut message of betrayal by Pakistani Government.
7. Finally Pakistan is paying back.

In Short, Fundamental Islam is the mother of Taliban, Pakistan as father, Saudi Arabia as step father and US as uncle.

the reason for most of our foreign policy problems arise because we are not aggressive. we never intended to be a military superpower with a sphere of influence. we never intended to establish military bases around the world. our politicians always engaged in petty party level politics. most of our politicians like laloo, mulayam know nothing about foriegn affairs and yet they occupy high level posts.

and our media loves them for their broken english and lame jokes. its a shame that we indians credit him for saving the railways.

gaurav_indian said:
Because of USA.

Not entirely. Most of the mess in South Asia is because of our own faults - our extreme religiousity, fatalistic beliefs, disdain for our own people, complacency towards our REAL duties and our general self-defeating attitude. We are like what Europeans were during the Dark Ages.

How many of us really demanded justice for what happened to Christians in Orissa and Karnataka? How many of us cared a dime about the pogrom in Gujrat? How on earth do goons manage to rape minor girls in jam-packed passenger trains? Who is to blame for such apathy - us or the US?

nix said:
the reason for most of our foreign policy problems arise because we are not aggressive. we never intended to be a military superpower with a sphere of influence. we never intended to establish military bases around the world.

We (~ Indians) tried that one, which backfired on us. The 1964 Indo-Pak war ended up a draw, with huge casualties on both sides. We lost the war against China in 1962 despite the patriotic overconfidence and bravado. Last time we wanted to 'control' Sri Lanka by creating LTTE, we ended up having our own PM assassinated by our own 'weapon'. India is still a young republic and still a military consumer. We don't have the kind of money, technological innovation or manpower to throw our weight around as a military superpower. Overseas bases are VERY expensive and unless we can give them something good and tangible in return, most countries wouldn't be too pleased to host Indian military in their soil. At present our only overseas military base is Ayni AFB in Kazakhstan, which was previously a defunct airfield.

confused said:
just wondering: why is south asia in such a $hitty mess?

because yOunG India is sleeping

gaurav_indian said:
Because of USA.

why do you feel like that??

The Taliban on Wednesday night demolished 11 houses of the Sikh community in the Orakzai Agency for refusing to pay ‘Jazia’.

The action was ordered by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan chief for Orakzai Agency, Hakeemullah Mehsud, after the deadline given to the Sikh community for payment of Jazia passed on Wednesday.

Source.

The ideological and military root of South Asia's problems is in islamabad while the economic and strategic root is in beijing. The entire region is ill because India has been weakened by the disease of terrorism. To cure India, anyway you look at it, the very first step would be to de-nuclearise pakistan. Only then can a comfortable environment be created to strengthen India and consequently the whole of South Asia. De-nuclearisation of pakistan would pave the way for an
> economic (starting with a common currency)
> cultural (does not mean religious)
> political (does not mean a common parliament)
> military (common armed forces not conquest) unification of South Asia.
The unification has to be in this order only.

In modern history, whenever the region has been united it has flourished but first step is de-nuclearisation of pakistan. So I'm cheering for the taliban to take over pakistan. We won't get a better reason to de-nuclearise pakistan. However it's unlikely to happen irrespective of whatever we see in the news.

Taliban was a self made organization financed by CIA (US) and ISI(PAK) to chuck out the soviets ..... It was created by Mullah Omar not by the US

afonofa said:
Source.

The ideological and military root of South Asia's problems is in islamabad while the economic and strategic root is in beijing. The entire region is ill because India has been weakened by the disease of terrorism. To cure India, anyway you look at it, the very first step would be to de-nuclearise pakistan. Only then can a comfortable environment be created to strengthen India and consequently the whole of South Asia. De-nuclearisation of pakistan would pave the way for an
> economic (starting with a common currency)
> cultural (does not mean religious)
> political (does not mean a common parliament)
> military (common armed forces not conquest) unification of South Asia.
The unification has to be in this order only.

In modern history, whenever the region has been united it has flourished but first step is de-nuclearisation of pakistan. So I'm cheering for the taliban to take over pakistan. We won't get a better reason to de-nuclearise pakistan. However it's unlikely to happen irrespective of whatever we see in the news.

it would nt be fare to denuclearize Pak without Denuclearizing India ..... it would nt be fare to denuclearize India without denuclearizing China ..... then u should denuclearize Russia ,US ,UK etc etc so its really impossible

Aberforth said:
Not entirely. Most of the mess in South Asia is because of our own faults - our extreme religiousity, fatalistic beliefs, disdain for our own people, complacency towards our REAL duties and our general self-defeating attitude. We are like what Europeans were during the Dark Ages.

How many of us really demanded justice for what happened to Christians in Orissa and Karnataka? How many of us cared a dime about the pogrom in Gujrat? How on earth do goons manage to rape minor girls in jam-packed passenger trains? Who is to blame for such apathy - us or the US?

We are just like our politicians .... LAZY ... we like to blame all our troubles on others US/PAk etc .... US is not responsible for welfare of India .... they will care only for themselves .... only we should care about ourselves ... its our RESPONSIBILITY

Phantom Lancer said:
it would nt be fare to denuclearize Pak without Denuclearizing India ..... it would nt be fare to denuclearize India without denuclearizing China ..... then u should denuclearize Russia ,US ,UK etc etc so its really impossible

Denuclearising pakistan without denuclearising India is only unfair if we think that the "idea of pakistan" has just as much right to exist as the "idea of India". But that is not the case. There is no valid economic, religious or cultural reason for the idea of pakistan to exist, on Indian land.

Economically they are begging for aid all over the world. The premise that muslims in a hindu dominated India would be economically discriminated against and muslims with their own land would be able to do well economically, has been proven false because economic ill-health is not religion specific in India. So might as well get the money by integrating with India.

If we consider only the religious factor then pakistan was created for the muslims of the sub-continent. But there are more muslims in India than there are in pakistan. So when the primary objective was not achieved(read rejected by a large majority), then there is no point in continuing the division and dividing the resources of the sub-continent.

To consider the cultural factor we have to look at it from two view points. First is that of the two-nation theory whereby people of a similar culture would form one nation and people of another culture would comprise the other nation. But when we consider the fact that when east pakistan broke away and Bangladesh was formed, we realise that the two-nation theory, which is the basis of the idea of pakistan, has been rotting in its grave since 1971.
The other cultural point of view now being propogated by pakistan is that since "their ancestors", the mughals were ruling over India for x number of years, this somehow gives them a civilizational right to form their own country out of Indian land. But this point of view too is false on two grounds.

First that genetic tests across the sub-continent have proven that muslims here are not descendants of mughals but are descendants of native Indians who were forced to convert to islam due to difficult and unfortunate circumstances.
Second if they were actually descendants of mughals then it is even more reason for them to go back to wherever the mughals came from.

So we see that there is no cultural need for a separate country to exist because if they are descendants of Indians then there is only need for one country for all Indians, irrespective of religion and if they are descendants of mughals then they are nothing but invaders who must leave for their true home either by their own will or by force. If they choose to be invaders and we accept their existence on our land then we might as well call back the british because by the same logic, the british too then would have the "right" to Indian land.

Out of the countries above, India, China, Russia, UK and France are countries built on native lands and most importantly they are civilizations in their own right (this is true for atleast India and China). They have the right to bear nuclear weapons to protect against an existential threat to their civilization. This is not true for the idea of pakistan because it is not a civilisation and hence cannot have an existential threat.

The idea of pakistan and the idea of USA are both built on non-native lands. They are both aberrations on the world body and neither should exist. But it is for the native americans to say that the USA should not exist and to work towards that end while we should be primarily concerned with ending the idea of pakistan and for that denuclearisation of pakistan is neccessary.

Another factor to consider between USA and pakistan is that they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, whether its economic, political, military or cultural. Think of these two countries this way, where the idea of USA is a second head on the world body, the idea of pakistan is a second ass-O on the world body. Both good and bad things can from a second head but only one thing can come from a second ass-O.

So IMO pakistan should not exist separately and denuclearisation of pakistan without denuclearisation of the other nuclear countries is not unfair. As for denuclearisation of USA, its for the native americans to decide if they want their civilization back and work accordingly.

hmm..native americans. i think they are happy living now with all perks. most of have permission to make what they feel like i.e., they can make casinos in states that have banned gambling coz they get special privileges.

even with all these privileges, most of them are poor. they have not been able to emulate the success that asians have had in that country. why? think for yourself.

there is no defense to what european colonialists did to the native indians. but those days were different. europe was overpopulated, so they went in search of new lands. and it was not only the british, but also the spainsh, french etc...

if the europeans had not gone there, somebody else would have gone.

in history, somebody is always taking someone else's land. its the nature of man.

As a matter of fact Pakistan is already suffering.

Pakistan is divided into four provinces, two centrally administered areas, one territory, and one capital territory.

Division ..................................Capital..............................Population(1998 )................Area(km.²)

Azad Kashmir..........................Muzaffarabad.........................2,800,000.....................11,639
Balochistan ...............................Quetta...............................6,565,885.....................347,190
Federally Administered Tribal Area......Islamabad...........................3,176,331......................27,220 .
Islamabad(THE BEAUTIFUL)..............Islamabad...........................805,235............................906
Northern Areas..............................Gilgit ...............................910,000.......................72,520
North-West Frontier.........................Peshawar..............................17,743,645.................74,521 28
Punjab......................................Lahore.................................73,621,290 ..................205,344
Sindh........................................Karachi................................30,439,893....................140,914

Areas in red are troubled areas.

There is much less hope.

Here is a midnight map of Pakistan. Balochistan is one of the most richest land in terms of natural resources like natural ga, oil, gold and copper, unfortunately Pakjabis (living in Punjab province in Pakistan) elites rule over Pakistan. So Balochs are deprived of basic necessities like electricity etc. Pakjabis are exploiting their natural resources giving them nothing. Remind you it were the same Pakjabis who were responsible for 1971 genocide in Bangladesh. Not much have changed.

*filebox.me/files/p7xmqx0ge_Midnightpak.jpg

Look how only Punjab and Sindh are provided with electricity and Balochistan is mostly in dark.

And most of SWAT is in Balochistan. Go figure

.

MetalheadGautham said:
And most of SWAT is in Balochistan. Go figure .

lolwut ?

nix said:
but those days were different. europe was overpopulated, so they went in search of new lands.

if the europeans had not gone there, somebody else would have gone.

in history, somebody is always taking someone else's land. its the nature of man.

Are the days good enough now for the europeans to come back to their original home? Is the overpopulation in the subcontinent at the same "severe" level as when europeans "migrated", to warrant a free migration to Australia and the Americas? If not is it OK if the subcontinent populates Antartica?

There were others who went to the Americas before the europeans with greatly different outcomes.

As for the exploitative nature and ideas of man, lets just say they seem to manifest and propogate mainly from the little warring region of Asia known as europe and leave it at that.