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'Delhi is unlivable': NYT reporter has every reason to abandon city

40 posts · originally from https://geek.digit.in/community/threads/delhi-is-unlivable-nyt-reporter-has-every-reason-to-abandon-city.191803/

Desmond
Desmond Original post #1
Jun 2, 2015 at 3:22 PM
Some call it “capital punishment” that kills slowly; others simply put it as air pollution — a lethal cocktail of toxic gases spewing from vehicle exhausts and factories mixed with dust and microscopic particles that sticks to human lung walls like industrial sludge.

Welcome to Delhi, the capital of Asia’s second-largest economy and one of the bottom-ranked megacities for foul air in recent World Health Organization data.
Or, goodbye Delhi!

The New York Times correspondent Gardiner Harris did exactly that after completing a three-year assignment and his parting shot was an article which whipsaws Delhi’s plague, its poisonous air.

He cynically demonstrates how the city is annihilating its future generation, which probably will have a very weak heart and weaker lungs thanks to a prolonged policy paralysis on air quality.

Harris begins his article with a deeply personal experience when his eight-year-old son, Bram, began gasping one terrifying night nine months after he moved with his family to this megacity.

“We gradually learned that Delhi’s true menace came from its air, water, food and flies. These perils sicken, disable and kill millions in India annually, making for one of the worst public health disasters in the world,” he wrote.

“Delhi, we discovered, is quietly suffering from a dire pediatric respiratory crisis, with a recent study showing that nearly half of the city’s 4.4 million school children have irreversible lung damage from the poisonous air.”

The article is another piece in a long list, reprising the rapidly growing developing world’s inescapable horror. The WHO says air pollution was responsible for over seven million premature deaths in 2012, one million more than tobacco, and around 88% of the dead belonged to low or middle-income countries.

Delhi, with a population of more than 16 million, could be described as the den of this monster because in places such as Dwarka and Anand Vihar, particulate matter pollution was three times the national standard. The city's air is more than twice as polluted as Beijing’s, according to the WHO.

The booming megapolis is a mother lode of opportunities attracting prospectors from across the world, not to mention the teeming millions from the country’s small towns and countryside looking to live their dreams. For some, the dream quickly fades because of the city’s unbreathable air and those having an option to leave, pack up and scoot.

The prime polluters are vehicles, factories and untrammeled constructions. Delhi adds over 1,000 vehicles every day to its overburdened roads and air; and an overwhelming number of trucks cram its streets at night.

The statutory National Green Tribunal recently banned old, fume-belching diesel vehicles from plying in the city and took up the onerous task of checking factories dotting Delhi and its neighbourhood, which are the prime suspects in contributing to the capital’s air menace.

Unless Delhi and its neighbours clean up their act together, as experts often point out, the national capital will continue to suffer.
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Source: 'Delhi is unlivable': NYT reporter has every reason to abandon city
theserpent
Jun 2, 2015 at 9:30 PM
Why can't they do limit the number of new vechiles being added to the road to the number of vechiles being scrapped in a month? And do other steps also to go green.
Vyom
Vyom #4
Jun 2, 2015 at 10:39 PM
Cause going green is last on their priorities. Looks like green DTC didn't do any good in Delhi.

Maybe the reporter was extra sensitive since times have changed in few years. Or maybe my body have adapted to the pollution.
K
kkn13 #5
Jun 2, 2015 at 11:25 PM
Why can't they do limit the number of new vechiles being added to the road to the number of vechiles being scrapped in a month? And do other steps also to go green.

Thats not the solution
The main issue are these stupid contractors who run 2-3 decade old vans,trucks and buses
^^Im from Mumbai where this is very very prevalent
Commercial vehicles shouldnt be allowed on the road beyond say 10 years max imho

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Maybe the reporter was extra sensitive since times have changed in few years. Or maybe my body have adapter to the pollution.

yeah or maybe he is like the other foreigners who like to exaggerate about issues in Indian cities
NYC is equally polluted,Ive been there and Its air is probably worse than Mumbai for sure
even noise pollution is higher in NYC
Vyom
Vyom #6
Jun 2, 2015 at 11:35 PM
yeah or maybe he is like the other foreigners who like to exaggerate about issues in Indian cities
NYC is equally polluted,Ive been there and Its air is probably worse than Mumbai for sure
even noise pollution is higher in NYC

Agree, he could be just exaggerate. Cleanliness I agree could be one potential problem, that Delhi still haven't got solution for.
If the reporter would have been written about "cleanliness" that would have make more sense.

Looks like someone got handsomely paid for this article.
icebags
icebags #7
Jun 2, 2015 at 11:45 PM
Why can't they do limit the number of new vechiles being added to the road to the number of vechiles being scrapped in a month? And do other steps also to go green.

people seem to forget tons of people smoking everywhere, tons of kgs of greenhouse gasses, floating ash particles and funny chemicals, not to forget lots of unwanted heat.

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yeah or maybe he is like the other foreigners who like to exaggerate about issues in Indian cities
NYC is equally polluted,Ive been there and Its air is probably worse than Mumbai for sure
even noise pollution is higher in NYC

dont think so, whenever i see the roads from afar, they all appear smokey with long chain of poorly maintained new or aged cars, as if some stove is burning.
theserpent
Jun 2, 2015 at 11:59 PM
Thats not the solution
The main issue are these stupid contractors who run 2-3 decade old vans,trucks and buses
^^Im from Mumbai where this is very very prevalent
Commercial vehicles shouldnt be allowed on the road beyond say 10 years max imho

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yeah or maybe he is like the other foreigners who like to exaggerate about issues in Indian cities
NYC is equally polluted,Ive been there and Its air is probably worse than Mumbai for sure
even noise pollution is higher in NYC

This, plus overloading of cars in the street's.They should emphasize on public transport.
Had been to Singapore a week back,over there they have this rule where you need to bid for a certificate to buy a car , so they see the number of cars going off road and make only a few available a month and heck even basic cars like honda city doesn't cost a bit less like in India,That way their roads are not over crowded.
I don't know why do they focus on development so much,Yes we need it, but to such a extent that...you unlist yourself from the world heritage city list by UNESCO? Saying it will hamper developments.?
K
kkn13 #9
Jun 3, 2015 at 12:13 AM
dont think so, whenever i see the roads from afar, they all appear smokey with long chain of poorly maintained new or aged cars, as if some stove is burning.

I dunno much about Delhi since I havent spent much time there but I live in Mumbai and I travel to alot of places including NYC
NYC is most definately more polluted than Mumbai for sure

about the chemicals,particles etc totally agreed,that seems to be a major concern for Delhi from what ive heard

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Agree, he could be just exaggerate. Cleanliness I agree could be one potential problem, that Delhi still haven't got solution for.
If the reporter would have been written about "cleanliness" that would have make more sense.

Looks like someone got handsomely paid for this article.

yep,western media rarely shows their own country issues imho
too busy peeping into others issues

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This, plus overloading of cars in the street's.They should emphasize on public transport.
Had been to Singapore a week back,over there they have this rule where you need to bid for a certificate to buy a car , so they see the number of cars going off road and make only a few available a month and heck even basic cars like honda city doesn't cost a bit less like in India,That way their roads are not over crowded.
I don't know why do they focus on development so much,Yes we need it, but to such a extent that...you unlist yourself from the world heritage city list by UNESCO? Saying it will hamper developments.?

but thats not why Singapore did it
Singapore is an island,they cant have more than a certain amount of vehicles at a time as congestion wont have a solution
In case of Mumbai and Delhi,old or excess vehicles can always go out of the cities to other towns etc
Faun
Faun #10
Jun 3, 2015 at 12:29 AM
This, plus overloading of cars in the street's.They should emphasize on public transport.

Should work towards better public transport.
U
unuckfut #11
Jun 3, 2015 at 1:34 AM
I wonder what would be his views about Delhi's weather during monsoon, not that I am saying it will be pollution free, but will be far more pleasant.
K
kkn13 #12
Jun 3, 2015 at 7:53 AM
Should work towards better public transport.

yeah Singapore,NYC,London have such efficient public transport systems,no one really buys/needs cars especially with the bad parking issues(even worse than in India because of strict parking laws)
even as a tourist whenever I visit these places,I end up using their public transport as its massively cheap ,speedy and tourist-friendly
theserpent
Jun 3, 2015 at 9:03 AM
Maybe move industries 50 kms away from the city?
Make new lung spaces in the city, presently most of the cities across the world needs it. (Bejing,Shanghai,Hong Kong esp)
Desmond
Desmond #14
Jun 3, 2015 at 11:41 AM
AFAIK, Beijing already started rounding up vehicles that are more than 20 years old or so and started retiring them. They actually paid people to retire their old vehicles. We should do something similar.

Source: China to take 6 million older vehicles off roads | Daily Mail Online

What is it about people that whenever a foreign national writes an article about some shortcoming in India, people dismiss it as mudslinging and make comments that their country is not better or sometimes worse. Even if NYC is worse, we don't live over there, but we have to live here and everyone knows that Indians have the weakest lungs in the world.

On the other hand, if this article were written by an Indian national, no one would give two f***s. Is this what we've come to?
dashing.sujay
Jun 3, 2015 at 12:29 PM
In delhi, pollution highly varies across the city. Somewhere, it's like you can't see beyond 50 meters and somewhere, it's quite OK. A friend of mine had stayed with me for some time. He had problem of sinus. Now whenever he stepped out in the streets, he always became ill, so go imagine.
Anorion
Anorion #16
Jun 3, 2015 at 2:39 PM
as far as Delhi is concerned, industries are not to blame
it's vehicles and dust. Dust from paved roads contribute more to the pollution than the industries...
A
Akashay #17
Jun 3, 2015 at 5:22 PM
Don't tell Delhi is bad and print whatever comes in your mind, last time i checked USA, UK and all the developed countries were the main reason for Global Warming (but that NYT reporter will not bother to cover that).
K
kkn13 #18
Jun 3, 2015 at 8:55 PM
Don't tell Delhi is bad and print whatever comes in your mind, last time i checked USA, UK and all the developed countries were the main reason for Global Warming (but that NYT reporter will not bother to cover that).

Foreigners love to exaggerate about developing economies as though they are oh-so-perfect
not saying he's entirely wrong but he surely is exaggerating imho
Anorion
Anorion #19
Jun 4, 2015 at 1:35 AM
not saying he's entirely wrong but he surely is exaggerating imho

yes, little bit. But that exaggeration is not more than what is necessary to bring the issue to light.

PS real time monitoring of pollution here> *www.cpcb.gov.in/cpcbpa/index.aspx?state=delhi
usually, all official sources government sources maintain there is no problem
K
kkn13 #20
Jun 4, 2015 at 9:39 AM
yes, little bit. But that exaggeration is not more than what is necessary to bring the issue to light.

PS real time monitoring of pollution here> *www.cpcb.gov.in/cpcbpa/index.aspx?state=delhi
usually, all official sources government sources maintain there is no problem

yeah thats another issue that needs tackling!
G
gemini90 #21
Jun 4, 2015 at 10:59 AM
HOLD YOUR BREATH AND CUT THE HYPERBOLE, MR NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER

Newslaundry ? Hold Your Breath And Cut The Hyperbole, Mr New York Times Reporter

To be sure, away from the customary “My wife was out walking with a friend, and their eyes became teary and their throats began to close,” Harris does back his story up by providing as many as 26 citations. Here’s the breakdown:

1 on Delhi’s monkey menace

1 on Delhi’s cattle stealers

1 on Delhi’s stray dogs

2 on Smog in China

1 on Kejriwal seeking treatment

2 on Bio-data of scientists

1 on Pollution in Yamuna

12 on Air pollution causing respiratory diseases in general

1 on PM2.5 causing respiratory and other diseases in general

1 on Superbugs

1 on Poor sanitation in India

1 on WHO PM2.5 and PM10 worldwide study (including Delhi)

1 on Effect of Delhi’s air-pollution on children’s health

There we have it. For an article that talks in excruciating detail of the cataclysmic effect Delhi’s air has had on the health of the author’s child – and the ethical dilemma faced by expats, whether they should risk raising their loved ones in this godforsaken metropolis – for all those morbid adjectives and gut-wrenching, bile-inducing descriptions, Harris quotes but a single scientific study.

“Delhi, we discovered,” he writes, “is quietly suffering from a dire pediatric respiratory crisis, with a recent study showing that nearly half of the city’s 4.4 million schoolchildren have irreversible lung damage from the poisonous air.”

Single it may be, a citation is still a citation. Except that here it is in the form of an article written in The Indian Express, and worse, the study it quotes is born out of data that was collected between 2002 and 2005. Yes, more than 10 years ago.

Discounting the fact that Harris insists on calling it “a recent study”; discounting also the fact that The Indian Express blunders with their subheading – “Just under half of the 44 lakh schoolchildren studied…” it says, while in reality only 11,628 schoolchildren were studied and the results of the survey extrapolated – the cited report is as comprehensive as one can get.

The study points to the harmful effect Delhi’s air had on the health of 11,628 schoolchildren between 2002-2005: “In lung tests conducted on 5,718 students, 43.5% suffered from “poor or restrictive lungs”; about 15% of the children surveyed complained of frequent eye irritation, 27.4% of frequent headache, 11.2% of nausea, 7.2% of palpitation and 12.9% of fatigue.”

But it is more nuanced than that. The study surveyed children from 36 schools, six of which were situated on Delhi’s main roads that are notoriously choked with traffic all through the day, with one, Lakshmi Public School – that presented one-tenth of the children surveyed – located near one of Delhi’s biggest bottle-necks – Vikas Marg intersection. It is also worth noting that in 2002, Delhi’s fleet of 6,000 rickety diesel buses had not yet been phased out despite Supreme Court orders, nor had most of the 25,000 odd auto rickshaws converted to compressed natural gas, or CNG.

In the age group of six to eight – the same as Harris’ son – the prevalence of current asthma in Delhi’s children was found to be marginally higher: 2.5 per cent compared to two per cent in the control group. Prevalence of current asthma shot up in children belonging to large-sized families and families with poor socioeconomic background (5.1 per cent for a family size greater than six).

The study found a strong positive association between PM10 and eye irritation, but not with asthma or headache. (PM10, or Particulate Matter of size 10 microns, and PM2.5, or Particulate Matter with size equal to or less than 2.5 microns, are the two major determinants of air pollution. It is now an accepted scientific fact that prevalence of PM2.5 – measured in µg/m3 – is more dangerous than PM10 as it settles deep inside the lungs).

Twenty-seven per cent of Delhi’s children studied were exposed to cigarette smoke at home (Control 28 per cent) and, crucially, the study found that a child’s BMI, or Body Mass Index, has a profound influence on his lung function.

The study concluded:

More respiratory symptoms were found in children from low socioeconomic status, i.e. poor sanitation, low birth weight, vitamin A and zinc deficiency, and poverty.

Underweight children from low SES of this study had greater prevalence of lung function deficits than that of children with normal weight, suggesting a role of nutrition on lung function.

Respiratory and associated symptoms were most prevalent in children from low socioeconomic status, and least in children from families with high socio-economic background.

Not exactly the conclusions that should worry Harris who, as a primer to his article, commented, rather gaudily it must be said: “Should rich/foreigners raise children in Delhi? Maybe not.”

Should rich/foreigners raise children in Delhi? Maybe not. *nyti.ms/1FRFaJ2

— Gardiner Harris (@GardinerHarris) May 29, 2015

Be that as it may, the 10 year-old study is a landmark – it is the most extensive and thorough study ever carried out on the correlation of Delhi’s air-pollution with the health of its children. The only other major study of this nature one can think of – and one which is truly recent – is the 2015 study conducted by the HEAL Foundation, a non-government organisation. The researchers surveyed 2,000 schoolchildren nationwide, and their extrapolated conclusions: Nearly half of Delhi’s children suffer severe lung problems due to air pollution, were splashed across all newspapers and news channels on May 5, 2015. “Around 35 per cent of school-going children in India suffer from poor lung health with Delhi topping the chart,” said NDTV .

What NDTV and others failed to report was that the HEAL Foundation survey was not only not a peer-reviewed study published in a scientific journal but, more worryingly, it was paid for by the global Air-purifier company Blueair, that launched in India two weeks after the study was published.

NDTV, that incidentally is running a Clean Air, My Right campaign, has not brought to the attention of its readers and viewers this startling fact.

Returning to Harris’ magnum opus, the only other study he cites concerning Delhi’s air quality or lack thereof, is a 2014 World Health Organisation study, that tabulates the prevalence of Suspended Particulate Matter PM10 and PM2.5 in 1,600 cities across the world during the period 2008-2013.

The WHO report mentions Delhi as having a mean PM10 value of 286 µg/m3 for the year 2010, and a mean PM2.5 value of 153 µg/m3 for the year 2013. Delhi’s air came out as one of the most polluted among all the cities surveyed. At the time this study was published, the government-run System of Air Quality Weather Forecasting and Research disputed the WHO findings, stating that PM values changed with seasons and became comparatively better than the values given for Beijing (121 and 56 for PM10 and PM2.5 respectively).

Interestingly, the PM2.5 value for Doha, Qatar – that has the highest GDP per capita (PPP) among all the nations of the world – is 93 µg/m3 (year 2012). Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE had a PM10 value of 170 µg/m3. It should also be noted that in the 10 year-old study cited by Harris, and discussed in detail above, the 2002-2005 mean PM10 value for Delhi’s traffic intersection points was 250 µg/m3.

The PM10 and PM2.5 values for Delhi this morning (June 3, 2015) are 120 and 71 µg/m3 respectively, less than half of WHO’s figures.

What’s going on? Has Delhi’s air turned healthier than what it was in 2010? Highly doubtful, considering the increase in vehicular traffic, the rampant burning of dry leaves despite High Court guidelines, and the unbearable menace of street sweeping in the mornings. The PM2.5 range includes atmospheric, construction, cement, and settling dust, and dust it is that envelops millions of Delhi office goers and schoolchildren in the morning. Ravinder Raj, an 80 year-old man has filed repeated public interest litigations to get the Municipal Corporation of Delhi to switch to sweeping the streets at night but to no avail. Just this simple solution, he says, can reduce the instances of respiratory diseases by 90 per cent.

If Delhi is bad, it has company. “Half of the world’s urban population,” says the WHO study, “lives in cities that exceed by 2.5 times or more the recommended levels of fine particulate matter set out by the WHO Air Quality Guidelines and only around 12 per cent of the total urban population lives in cities where the air quality complies with WHO levels.”

So, should Harris’ piece be ignored? Hardly. We as a nation collect everything else except data. The last National Family Health Survey – the single-most important survey to judge our nation’s health, and one on the back of which hundreds of policies are drafted – the last NFHS was conducted in 2005, 10 years ago. Worsening air pollution is a reality, and what the departing Harris has done is given us a wake-up call. It is astonishing, and frankly unacceptable, that there exists no recent comprehensive and peer-reviewed scientific study on the effect of Delhi’s air pollution on its inhabitants, particularly the most vulnerable group, children.

The Ministry of Environment’s website is silent on this. How can things improve if policy-makers have no up-to-date scientific study to base their decisions on, and are forced to rely on 10 year-old reports? Policy-making is not op-ed writing.

Harris moves to Washington this week along with his family, and if he believes the WHO findings his next important posting best not be in the world’s richest country, Qatar. But his last dispatch from Delhi might just be his most important, its PM2.5 value notwithstanding.
Faun
Faun #22
Jun 4, 2015 at 3:22 PM
Our own desi portal to check AQI
National Air Quality Index
A
Akashay #23
Jun 4, 2015 at 6:08 PM
Foreigners love to exaggerate about developing economies as though they are oh-so-perfect
not saying he's entirely wrong but he surely is exaggerating imho

I was wondering if the reporter got a heart attack when he come to knew about Meggi and Potty Incidence :lol:
theserpent
Jun 4, 2015 at 7:34 PM
Thats not the solution
The main issue are these stupid contractors who run 2-3 decade old vans,trucks and buses
^^Im from Mumbai where this is very very prevalent
Commercial vehicles shouldnt be allowed on the road beyond say 10 years max imho

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yeah or maybe he is like the other foreigners who like to exaggerate about issues in Indian cities
NYC is equally polluted,Ive been there and Its air is probably worse than Mumbai for sure
even noise pollution is higher in NYC

Nop.US is trying to going green atleast.
Pollution comparison Today morning between USA and Delhi : india
Just see this.
Edited:
Mumbai is one of the lesser polluted cities of india good to known
Air Quality Monitoring Stations

Edit 2:
India,China,South America and a few parts of North America are the most polluted
Air Pollution in North America: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map
G
gemini90 #25
Jun 4, 2015 at 8:03 PM
Nop.US is trying to going green atleast.
Pollution comparison Today morning between USA and Delhi : india
Just see this.
Edited:
Mumbai is one of the lesser polluted cities of india good to known
Air Quality Monitoring Stations

Edit 2:
India,China,South America and a few parts of North America are the most polluted
Air Pollution in North America: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map

India too is trying to go green. The no. of steps taken, schemes launched and the amount of money being poured in is significant. And your goody good industrialized nations are passively trying to scuttle that effort being made by 'the most polluted parts of world' alonf with development process, you know.

The games they play at climate summits!
theserpent
Jun 4, 2015 at 8:06 PM
India too is trying to go green. The no. of steps taken, schemes launched and the amount of money being poured in is significant. And your goody good industrialized nations are passively trying to scuttle that effort being made by 'the most polluted parts of world' alonf with development process, you know.

The games they play at climate summits!

50-50.They are still at the development stage sadly, they are trying not to get the "UNESCO" Tags because it will hamper their so called development.(RIP Western Ghats- in the future).
G
gemini90 #27
Jun 4, 2015 at 8:20 PM
50-50.They are still at the development stage sadly, they are trying not to get the "UNESCO" Tags because it will hamper their so called development.(RIP Western Ghats- in the future).

Well, yes we are still at development stage because while the industrialists countries (who by the way lead the way in pollution) are now rich enough to the green way relatively easy and cheaply (as a % of their budgets) and at the same time are trying to force us into iron clauses to do the same (when our role in pollution worldwide is minute) without financing a part of our effort/ giving us their tech, a promise they made earlier in previous climate summits. We have to develop our own tech with our own money. Why should India be put on par with the industrialists countries than?

And what is with us Indians? Always fighting the fight on behalf of others against our own.

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And as for western ghat, see the Gov. appointed Gadgil committee report

Western Ghats: Ecologically Sensitive Zone (ECZ) & WGEA

So don't say that efforts are not being made.


And do check which country is targeting 100GW of solar electricity by 2020. We are doing our share of work to reduce pollution.
theserpent
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:00 AM
Well, yes we are still at development stage because while the industrialists countries (who by the way lead the way in pollution) are now rich enough to the green way relatively easy and cheaply (as a % of their budgets) and at the same time are trying to force us into iron clauses to do the same (when our role in pollution worldwide is minute) without financing a part of our effort/ giving us their tech, a promise they made earlier in previous climate summits. We have to develop our own tech with our own money. Why should India be put on par with the industrialists countries than?

And what is with us Indians? Always fighting the fight on behalf of others against our own.

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And as for western ghat, see the Gov. appointed Gadgil committee report

Western Ghats: Ecologically Sensitive Zone (ECZ) & WGEA

So don't say that efforts are not being made.


And do check which country is targeting 100GW of solar electricity by 2020. We are doing our share of work to reduce pollution.

There is a point though.Surely, in the next 5-10 years efforts are going to be made to reduce pollution.
K
kkn13 #29
Jun 5, 2015 at 1:16 AM
Nop.US is trying to going green atleast.
Pollution comparison Today morning between USA and Delhi : india
Just see this.
Edited:
Mumbai is one of the lesser polluted cities of india good to known
Air Quality Monitoring Stations

Edit 2:
India,China,South America and a few parts of North America are the most polluted
Air Pollution in North America: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map

trying to go green??? how??? with those huuge petrol thirsty SUVs and sports cars etc??

Ive been to NYC,its very very polluted
US isnt perfect ,wastage is very very high there

for eg
you go to buy a cup of milk , they will give you a full carton for the same price
the average american will drink a little, then throw it away

How Much Garbage Does a Person Create in One Year?

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India too is trying to go green. The no. of steps taken, schemes launched and the amount of money being poured in is significant. And your goody good industrialized nations are passively trying to scuttle that effort being made by 'the most polluted parts of world' alonf with development process, you know.

The games they play at climate summits!

exactly !! also they dont have an entire population to take care of
they dont have to deal with poor illiteracy rates in villages or poverty like India has to

they also had a headstart as we got independence pretty late

the developed countries are the ones who are responsible for climate issues etc
theserpent
Jun 5, 2015 at 9:24 AM
trying to go green??? how??? with those huuge petrol thirsty SUVs and sports cars etc??

Ive been to NYC,its very very polluted
US isnt perfect ,wastage is very very high there

for eg
you go to buy a cup of milk , they will give you a full carton for the same price
the average american will drink a little, then throw it away


How Much Garbage Does a Person Create in One Year?

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exactly !! also they dont have an entire population to take care of
they dont have to deal with poor illiteracy rates in villages or poverty like India has to

they also had a headstart as we got independence pretty late

the developed countries are the ones who are responsible for climate issues etc

Completely agree with this.
Finally they are saying Ganga will show signs of being pollution free by next year
Faun
Faun #31
Jun 5, 2015 at 11:53 AM
exactly !! also they dont have an entire population to take care of
they dont have to deal with poor illiteracy rates in villages or poverty like India has to

they also had a headstart as we got independence pretty late

the developed countries are the ones who are responsible for climate issues etc

Stop harping about how they got all the advantages. South Korea got independence pretty late too. Do something rather than rant here. We still have lot of mess to clean up.

The State, Systems of Innovation and Economic Growth: Comparative Perspectives from India and South Korea 1 | Lakhwinder Singh - Academia.edu

*upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Per_capita_GDP_of_South_Asian_economies_%26_SKorea_%281950-1995%29.png

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trying to go green??? how??? with those huuge petrol thirsty SUVs and sports cars etc??

Ive been to NYC,its very very polluted
US isnt perfect ,wastage is very very high there

for eg
you go to buy a cup of milk , they will give you a full carton for the same price
the average american will drink a little, then throw it away

We are sure trying to go green with less people interested in buying SUVs here. Appreciate your concern about that.

NYC is very polluted and US is not perfect. Ok, got your point.

How do you come to an assumption that average american will drink a little (<10% ?) and throw everything else ? I haven't seen that type of luxury during my travels abroad. Met people who are as frugal as anyone can be here.
G
gemini90 #32
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:15 PM
[MENTION=20614]Faun[/MENTION] These optics are very important when you are most likely to be singled out in the next climate summit as the single most cause for world's gov failure to contain and reduce pollution. Look at what happened at copenhagen where all the developing and under-developed countries bandied together to protect their rights. Look at how india is being singled out as the only block to WTO agreement when we are just trying to protect the rights of our farmers. You can't just be defensive infront of the western nations.

Being humble gains us nothing and even lets others trample on our legitimate rights. As an example -


India to push for cut in farm subsidies of rich nations | Business Standard News

The issue was expected to be raised by Minister of State for Commerce and Industry Nirmala Sitharaman at an informal meeting of trade ministers under the aegis of the World Trade Organization (WTO), on the sidelines of a meeting of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in Paris on Wednesday.
Faun
Faun #33
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:23 PM
[MENTION=20614]Faun[/MENTION] These optics are very important when you are most likely to be singled out in the next climate summit as the single most cause for world's gov failure to contain and reduce pollution. Look at what happened at copenhagen where all the developing and under-developed countries bandied together to protect their rights. Look at how india is being singled out as the only block to WTO agreement when we are just trying to protect the rights of our farmers. You can't just be defensive infront of the western nations.

Do we need to harp about on a daily basis from the anecdotal evidences we find or make up to suit our agenda ? Don't you see the folly of this vicious circle. Act rather than continuing the circle.
Anorion
Anorion #34
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:23 PM
Who should point out when development projects have adverse effects on the ecosystem.
G
gemini90 #35
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM
[MENTION=56202]Anorion[/MENTION] Our independent and autonomous institutions like National Green Tribunal, a judicial body and people through by filing PIL's etc in Supreme Court (CNG Delhi ? the world?s cleanest public bus system running on CNG | The Product-Life Institute). May take time but if you allow outsiders to butt in your internal matters, you can be 100% sure that they will use it to profit and protect their own interests which may run counter to ours.

For eg, the Western funded agitation against Russian origin Kudankulam nuclear plant.

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[MENTION=20614]Faun[/MENTION] You tell me, are we not acting in regards to the environment?
K
kkn13 #36
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:52 PM
[MENTION=20614]Faun[/MENTION]
Ive been to like 30 countries during my travels
America like to live life king size
they pay the same rates as us but get much more quantity
you order 1 meal there in most places and itll be enough for 2-3 people easily

their wastage rate is the highest in the world , the people there,some of them my own friends and relatives dont buy "just enough"
its like use and throw
Anorion
Anorion #37
Jun 5, 2015 at 12:59 PM
nuclear power is extremely expensive to insure, which is why the Russian deal failed. Skeptical about how modern and up to date the new nuclear power plants will be, and wonder if there are better alternatives. Solar is a good option for India.

our systems are too corrupt to be trusted to handle this on their own.

forest rights act already diluted, coal blocks in sensitive areas auctioned... that is where the Tiger's live, forest at Mahan going...
hornbills and frogs cannot fight for themselves, and apathetic people don't care, so any one who "meddles" should be welcomed because they may rise issues we are nor aware of or care about. We cannot differentiate when it comes to environment.
G
gemini90 #38
Jun 5, 2015 at 1:19 PM
[MENTION=56202]Anorion[/MENTION] So it is with every developing country, and to some extent with developed ones.And i agree that the indian penal code needs a revisiting. So do our own work and strengthen them up instead of inviting outsiders to come and judge us and our efforts. Does history not have enough lessons in this regard?

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Russian deal failed? The plant is already operating at full strength after the gov refused to back down before the opposition.

And it is give and take. We don't have enough resources to tackle the development and environment threads differently.

And is NGT not an eg of strengthning our legal framework?
A
Akashay #39
Jun 5, 2015 at 5:12 PM
One must remember that this tiny little tittle Earth has to fulfill the ambition of over 7 billion dreams. This should be “one world one fight” and not “your problem you fight”. The Western countries started the global warming to secure their dreams now in 21th century Asian countries are also doing the same. The only difference now is that we have resource and capability to cut out the emissions and harmful gases ( though those techs are expensive). What the developed country must understand that they need to demonstrate leadership qualities and help their rising brother to achieve their ambition by transfer of tools and technology (we still secure our most of the energy needs via coal if something better exists why not use it).
G
gemini90 #40
Jun 7, 2015 at 4:01 PM
Why India is captured by carbon | David Rose | News | The Guardian

Meanwhile, the government has just introduced new pollution standards for coal plant technology – as strict as any in the world. “You will no longer be able to burn coal cheaply and pollute,” said Bushan. Under these rules, old plants such as Shaktinagar and Anpara A will have to be scrapped.

Bushan warned that better regulations would not necessarily be enforced. “The arm of the law is not always long in India. But there are certain trends that are positive. I am impressed quite frankly with the Modi government on these issues. They’ve done more than I expected.”