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Droid versus Ios efficiency.

47 posts · originally from https://geek.digit.in/community/threads/droid-versus-ios-efficiency.156375/

NoasArcAngel
NoasArcAngel Original post #1
May 1, 2012 at 8:06 PM
So i came up with a simple way how you can bluntly calculate the efficiency of an os.

efficiency of an os = number of threads processed / per cpu cycle.

power required to run os is directly proportional to the number of cpu cycles.

Thus you can run the same app on 2 phones , one droid and one i0s having same cpu clocks and similar battery and find out which gives up first. End of story.

Or if there is a counter for the number of cycles you can do that in developer mode.

by Droid I mean android only I thought it sounded more macho.
the redragon who is a real troll did not realise the wildfire uses an a11 ARM whereas the 3gs uses a8 so thats a
generation gap there.....
AndroidFan
May 1, 2012 at 8:15 PM
There is an excellent discussion on this subject on Google Plus, by a Google employee Dianne Hackborn. You should check it out... Highly recommended... -- *plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x93s

How about some Android graphics true facts?


I get tired of seeing so much misinformation posted and repeated all over the place about how graphics rendering works on Android. Here is some truth:

• Android has always used some hardware accelerated drawing. Since before 1.0 all window compositing to the display has been done with hardware.

• This means that many of the animations you see have always been hardware accelerated: menus being shown, sliding the notification shade, transitions between activities, pop-ups and dialogs showing and hiding, etc.

• Android did historically use software to render the contents of each window. For example in a UI like *www.simplemobilereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2-home-menu.png there are four windows: the status bar, the wallpaper, the launcher on top of the wallpaper, and the menu. If one of the windows updates its contents, such as highlighting a menu item, then (prior to 3.0) software is used to draw the new contents of that window; however none of the other windows are redrawn at all, and the re-composition of the windows is done in hardware. Likewise, any movement of the windows such as the menu going up and down is all hardware rendering.

• Looking at drawing inside of a window, you don’t necessarily need to do this in hardware to achieve full 60fps rendering. This depends very much on the number of pixels in your display and the speed of your CPU. For example, Nexus S has no trouble doing 60fps rendering of all the normal stuff you see in the Android UI like scrolling lists on its 800x480 screen. The original Droid however struggled with a similar screen resolution.

• "Full" hardware accelerated drawing within a window was added in Android 3.0. The implementation in Android 4.0 is not any more full than in 3.0. Starting with 3.0, if you set the flag in your app saying that hardware accelerated drawing is allowed, then all drawing to the application’s windows will be done with the GPU. The main change in this regard in Android 4.0 is that now apps that are explicitly targeting 4.0 or higher will have acceleration enabled by default rather than having to put android:handwareAccelerated="true" in their manifest. (And the reason this isn’t just turned on for all existing applications is that some types of drawing operations can’t be supported well in hardware and it also impacts the behavior when an application asks to have a part of its UI updated. Forcing hardware accelerated drawing upon existing apps will break a significant number of them, from subtly to significantly.)

• Hardware accelerated drawing is not all full of win. For example on the PVR drivers of devices like the Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus, simply starting to use OpenGL in a process eats about 8MB of RAM. Given that our process overhead is about 2MB, this is pretty huge. That RAM takes away from other things, such as the number of background processes that can be kept running, potentially slowing down things like app switching.

• Because of the overhead of OpenGL, one may very well not want to use it for drawing. For example some of the work we are doing to make Android 4.0 run well on the Nexus S has involved turning off hardware accelerated drawing in parts of the UI so we don’t lose 8MB of RAM in the system process, another 8MB in the phone process, another 8MB in the system UI process, etc. Trust me, you won’t notice -- there is just no benefit on that device in using OpenGL to draw something like the status bar, even with fancy animations going on in there.

• Hardware accelerated drawing is not a magical silver bullet to butter-smooth UI. There are many different efforts that have been going on towards this, such as improved scheduling of foreground vs. background threads in 1.6, rewriting the input system in 2.3, strict mode, concurrent garbage collection, loaders, etc. If you want to achieve 60fps, you have 20 milliseconds to handle each frame. This is not a lot of time. Just touching the flash storage system in the thread that is running the UI can in some cases introduce a delay that puts you out of that timing window, especially if you are writing to storage.

• A recent example of the kinds of interesting things that impact UI smoothness: we noticed that ICS on Nexus S was actually less smooth when scrolling through lists than it was on Gingerbread. It turned out that the reason for this was due to subtle changes in timing, so that sometimes in ICS as the app was retrieving touch events and drawing the screen, it would go to get the next event slightly before it was ready, causing it to visibly miss a frame while tracking the finger even though it was drawing the screen at a solid 60fps. (Edit: for those who need this made clear, yes of course this particular issue is fixed.)

• When people have historically compared web browser scrolling between Android and iOS, most of the differences they are seeing are not due to hardware accelerated drawing. Originally Android went a different route for its web page rendering and made different compromises: the web page is turned in to a display list, which is continually rendered to the screen, instead of using tiles. This has the benefit that scrolling and zooming never have artifacts of tiles that haven’t yet been drawn. Its downside is that as the graphics on the web page get more complicated to draw the frame rate goes down. As of Android 3.0, the browser now uses tiles, so it can maintain a consistent frame rate as you scroll or zoom, with the negative of having artifacts when newly needed tiles can’t be rendered quickly enough. The tiles themselves are rendered in software, which I believe is the case for iOS as well. (And this tile-based approach could be used prior to 3.0 without hardware accelerated drawing; as mentioned previously, the Nexus S CPU can easily draw the tiles to the window at 60fps.)

• Hardware accleration does not magically make drawing performance problems disappear. There is still a limit to how much the GPU can do. A recent interesting example of this is tablets built with Tegra 2 -- that GPU can touch every pixel of a 1280x800 screen about 2.5 times at 60fps. Now consider the Android 3.0 tablet home screen where you are switching to the all apps list: you need to draw the background (1x all pixels), then the layer of shortcuts and widgets (let’s be nice and say this is .5x all pixels), then the black background of all apps (1x all pixels), and the icons and labels of all apps (.5x all pixels). We’ve already blown our per-pixel budget, and we haven’t even composited the separate windows to the final display yet. To get 60fps animation, Android 3.0 and later use a number of tricks. A big one is that it tries to put all windows into overlays instead of having to copy them to the framebuffer with the GPU. In the case here even with that we are still over-budget, but we have another trick: because the wallpaper on Android is in a separate window, we can make this window larger than the screen to hold the entire bitmap. Now, as you scroll, the movement of the background doesn’t require any drawing, just moving its window... and because this window is in an overlay, it doesn’t even need to be composited to the screen with the GPU.

• As device screen resolution goes up, achieving a 60fps UI is closely related to GPU speed and especially the GPU’s memory bus bandwidth. In fact, if you want to get an idea of the performance of a piece of hardware, always pay close attention to the memory bus bandwidth. There are plenty of times where the CPU (especially with those wonderful NEON instructions) can go a lot faster than the memory bus.

EDIT:

Wow this has generated a lot more discussion, and I won't be able to address nearly everything that has been raised. But I'll try to expand on things a bit here to better address what I think are some of the more interesting points.

Some have raised points along the lines of Samsung Galaxy S2 phones already having a smoother UI and indicating that they are doing something different vs. the Galaxy Nexus. When comparing individual devices though you really need to look at all of the factors. For example, the S2's screen is 480x800 vs. the Galaxy Nexus at 720x1280. If the Nexus S could already do 60fps for simple UIs on its 480x800, the CPU in the S2's is even better off.

The real important difference between these two screens is just that the Galaxy Nexus has 2.4x as many pixels that need to be drawn as the S2. This means that to achieve the same efficiency at drawing the screen, you need a CPU that can run a single core at 2.4x the speed (and rendering a UI for a single app is essentially not parallelizable, so multiple cores isn't going to save you).

This is where hardware accelerated rendering really becomes important: as the number of pixels goes up, GPUs can generally scale much better to handle them, since they are more specialized at their task. In fact this was the primary incentive for implementing hardware accelerated drawing in Android -- at 720x1280 we are well beyond the point where current ARM CPUs can provide 60fps. (And this is a reason to be careful about making comparisons between the Galaxy Nexus and other devices like the S2 -- if you are running third party apps, there is a good chance today that the app is not enabling hardware acceleration, so your comparison is doing CPU rendering on the Galaxy Nexus which means you almost certainly aren't going to get 60fps out of it, because it needs to hit 2.4x as many pixels as the S2 does.)

To be complete, there is another big advantage that the GPU gives you -- many more drawing effects become feasible. For example, if you are drawing a bitmap in software, you basically can't do anything to it except apply an offset. Just trying to scale it is going to make rendering significantly slower. On a GPU, applying transformations well beyond simple scales is basically free. This is why in the new default Holo themes in Android we have background images -- with hardware accelerated drawing, we can afford to draw (and scale) them. In fact, if the hardware path is not enabled by the app, these background images will be turned off.
NoasArcAngel
May 1, 2012 at 8:24 PM
this is just graphic rendering ... what about how processes are handled?
AndroidFan
May 1, 2012 at 8:45 PM
Efficiency depends on how a particular app or game is coded... most battery sucking and resource sucking apps are because of bad coding. For example,

Here's what not to do when writing an Android application, courtesy of Glu Mobile.

The game Bug Village has two services that it tells Android need to always be running. And as if that's not enough, the services are running in different processes. Together these two processes are almost 10MB, which in a lower-end device is 10% or more of the typical available RAM for cached background processes.

This is terribly rude. Don't do this unless you really need to.

If you are writing an Exchange client and need to maintain an active connection with an Exchange server? Yeah, that's why this is possible.

If you are writing a game? No.

And no matter what, for the love of all, don't use two processes to do this.

*lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZRKA-K2yGG0/T2OvSQy5JJI/AAAAAAAAG9k/8_JL9uVKs0g/s544/BugVillage.png

iOS and WP7 are more efficient, because they don't have true multitasking... A real eye opener is this article...

Fraser Speirs - Blog - Misconceptions About iOSMultitasking

the iOS multitasking bar does not contain "a list of all running apps". It contains "a list of recently used apps". The user never has to manage background tasks on iOS.

Let's get technical: iOS apps have five states of execution. These are:

*Not running - the app has been terminated or has not been launched.
*Inactive - the app is in the foreground but not receiving events (for example, the user has locked the device with the app active)
*Active - the normal state of "in use" for an app
*Background - the app is no longer on-screen but is still executing code
*Suspended - the app is still resident in memory but is not executing code

When you press the home button, the app moves from Active to Background. Most apps usually then go from Background to Suspended in a matter of seconds.

The first technical caveat is that Suspended apps remain in the device's memory. This is so they can resume more quickly when you go back to them. They're not using processor time and they're not sucking battery power.

You may think that, if an app is resident in memory, you have to somehow remove it to conserve memory. You don't because iOS does it for you. If there are Suspended apps lying around and you launch a memory-intensive app such as a big game, iOS will start to purge Suspended apps and move them to the Not Running state. That is, they will be completely removed from memory and will launch afresh the next time you tap their icon

But Android is simply different... It has true multitasking, and sometimes, limited resources on the phone, combined with poor coding, can lead to slowdowns...
NoasArcAngel
May 1, 2012 at 8:52 PM
so I guess that settles this then ..... android ftw apple ios-noob
red dragon
May 2, 2012 at 1:18 PM
the redragon who is a real troll did not realise the wildfire uses an a11 ARM whereas the 3gs uses a8 so thats a
generation gap there.....
What is your point mate?
Yes I love to troll people like you,who have used Android for a couple of months and consider themselves major geeks.I d
Do you have any idea that your post does not make any sense at all!
Just post it in xda(hope you heard of it),even rabid Android fanboys will troll you mercilessly.
Are not you the same person who created a thread on ipad vs Android tablet here?
Before trying to start a flame war,please learn the basics first.
I am sure ico will lock this thread soon ,but would love to discuss Android with you mate!
@ico,please let this thread live buddy.
NoasArcAngel
May 2, 2012 at 5:11 PM
What is your point mate?
Yes I love to troll people like you,who have used Android for a couple of months and consider themselves major geeks.I d
Do you have any idea that your post does not make any sense at all!
Just post it in xda(hope you heard of it),even rabid Android fanboys will troll you mercilessly.
Are not you the same person who created a thread on ipad vs Android tablet here?
Before trying to start a flame war,please learn the basics first.
I am sure ico will lock this thread soon ,but would love to discuss Android with you mate!
@ico,please let this thread live buddy.

Yea bro you said that even the apple iphone 3gs has a 600mhz processor. What i am trying to say is that, read carefully and try to understand plz.

Apple : lets make a phone with good hardware and optimise apps so that they run the best. The only thing which consumers care about is what they see..

Android : :eek: time for some multitasking.

What i am trying to say is that : The apple Ios, with all its fluid features is not efficient, heck not even is the windows os. I gave you a simple method above to check out the efficiency of an os, tell me as a developer i am wrong. Whenever you compare apple devices with others they should be in the same hardware league. Apple devices are generation ahead of what is currently available in the market. My HTC wildfire has a quallcomm processor which is based on arm 11 baseband. The iphone 3gs uses a cortex a8 processor. The difference is that per clock the CPU operates the cortex a8 gives u 2 more cycles. So thats virtually doubling of cpu resources and also since the cortex a8 is based on the new architecture your efficiency per cycle is nearly doubled. The iphone 3gs uses a power vr gpu. In the wildfire, the 528 mhz quallcomm processor also includes a gpu. So where the hell is the similarity of hardware? and how the hell can you compare them?

Yes XDA developers.... zzzz..... no big deal dude move on to the real world.

I am talking in terms of hardware data. Something which software geeks / developers are not very good at. You may know how to program an app but do you know how the systems inside work?

As far as developers are concerned there ware very few people who have the level of knowledge required to know the insights and pros and cons of how a system works.

Yes i created an ipad vs android tablet thread here. I did not know that the apps for the android tablets was less in number and i went only at the numbers. Because any android tablet worth its salt will simply bury the ipad 2 in the ground. And as far as the tegra 3 tablet is concerned , its raw cpu power is 2x ipad 3.

No i dont consider myself an android fanboy and i do not consider myself as a geek, what i know is that i know hardware. And what i also know is that you know nothing about it.
Anorion
Anorion #9
May 2, 2012 at 5:14 PM
^yep dude iPhones a generation ahead, it cant be compared, Retina Display does not allow for a fair comparison

dont see a need to compare

you run the same apps on droids and iPhones, there's no real visible performance difference, bunch of us play Lane Splitter, Orbital, Angry Birds on a Pop, Wildfire and 3GS... once the apps starts... its exactly the same... doesnt matter which device ur playing on at all

if the performance is measured in how much lag or bugs/glitchers are there, ofc droids are gonna lose coz of their very nature

yeah iOS does not support multi-tasking... in the same way that android gives users the freedom to run a truckload of apps at once... but the save state works wonderfully, if you get a call, you can continue playing a game at the exact instant you let off... and all the critical things woik as expected too... for example you can use Saavn or You Tube to play music and then switch to Lane Splitter and continue playing. Try doing that on a droid.
NoasArcAngel
May 2, 2012 at 5:38 PM
AnandTech - Samsung Galaxy S 2 (International) Review - The Best, Redefined

Read the Mobile Soc Gpu comparison. The iphone 4s uses a power vr 543mp2 gpu which has a raw bandwidth of 19.2Gb/s whereas the gs2 uses a gpu mali 400 which has a raw output of 10.8Gb/s So tell me really is there any comparison ? or is the android really inefficient?

The power vr 543mp2 used in the iphone 4s is clocked at 800mhz which is only 200mhz less than the ipad 2 gpu. YES the damn GPU with 200mhz more runs a full fledged tablet. ....

You want to bring it on now ???? check these out :
AnandTech - The HTC One X for AT&T Review
AnandTech - Apple iPhone 4S: Thoroughly Reviewed

These 2 phones run pretty much the same cpu. Now talk about efficiency. The HTC one X clearly blows the iphone 4s in competition. in literally each test. for the one which are related to the cpu

And obviously the iphone 4s has a tablet level GPU , so it is really no point trying to compare that with an android phone.

the gpu in the one x provides 4x as less bandwidth than the iphone 4s .. 4x LESS thats a 400 % difference only in the gpu, and runs the same resolution screen so how does that count for efficiency ?

as anandtech says it : "We expected Snapdragon S4 to do very well here based on our preview numbers and it did not disappoint. Although it's not quite as fast as Intel's Medfield, it's clearly the fastest smartphone SoC in this test otherwise. It's worth noting that HTC is able to deliver performance that's within 5% of Qualcomm's Snapdragon S4 MDP, a significant improvement over where things were last year.

The Sunspider test makes good use of 1 - 2 cores but there are times when it'll stress all four on a Tegra 3. For the most part however, NVIDIA's extra cores go unused in this benchmark
"

And you can bubbling here you can see just how REALLY EFFICIENT THE WP IS :
AnandTech - Nokia Lumia 900 Review - Windows Phone with LTE

*images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5724/45457.png

*images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5724/45458.png



still a " As I touched on before, the platform is still a Qualcomm-only party, and the name of the game is single core 45nm Snapdragon with Adreno 205 at the high end in the form of either MSM8x55, or for the Lumia 900 APQ8055 at 1.4 GHz."
pranav0091
May 2, 2012 at 5:48 PM
Buddy, efficiency is not that easy to calculate. And I dont really know of any processor that can handle more than a thread in a clock cycle. Maybe you were referring to instructions per clock cycle. But again numbers can me misleading. Tats why we have benchmarks. If everything were real simple like taking a product of two numbers they would've not been needed.

There is something called pipelining and the number of stages it has. Then there is the clock speed itself. The number crunching is a function of all these an some more things.
NoasArcAngel
May 2, 2012 at 6:09 PM
Buddy, efficiency is not that easy to calculate. And I dont really know of any processor that can handle more than a thread in a clock cycle. Maybe you were referring to instructions per clock cycle. But again numbers can me misleading. Tats why we have benchmarks. If everything were real simple like taking a product of two numbers they would've not been needed.

There is something called pipelining and the number of stages it has. Then there is the clock speed itself. The number crunching is a function of all these an some more things.

Thats why i said bluntly because there will always be other factors like how the data stream is working what is the archiecture of the sytem. But benchmarks ans raw power scores provide some result and we cannot compare the efficiency of 2 devices jus by looking at them hence benchmarks are the only logically possible tests

but you need to have some power also, comparing an android htc one x and iphone 4s is useless because except for the cpu there really is no competition. Yet i find people talking about how android is inefficient

and this is something that people should realise, that the android is not inefficient you are just not giving it enough damn power.......

and now after seeing the benchmarks do you think that android is really inefficient?

i can see you red dragon... My sight set on you .. Btw buddy forget about the flaming and i want to say i am sorry no hard feelings.
pranav0091
May 2, 2012 at 6:22 PM
Thats the whole point of the 'inefficiency' talk.
Who can do the best in a given amount of resources. Inefficient is not exactly saying its slow. Its slow with price comparable hardware (not market price of phones mind you).
red dragon
May 2, 2012 at 7:14 PM
@NoasArcAngel,
No offense mate,but you need to get your basics right.
Now this post is going to be very long.....just skip it,if you want to keep on fighting with some vague and superficial comment on how these two o.s multi-task.I will try not to use a single technical term and make it as simple as possible.



Starting from iOS 4, Apple’s has allowed user somewhat like a multitasking ability with a quick double press of the home button.Something like a multi tasking bar appears below the screen. long-press on an icon allows the user to remove an app from the multitasking bar.
It looks like removing the app is freeing some memory…BUT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE.
The multitasking look alike bar at the bottom merely shows the recent apps and has no relation with the running apps.
An ios app essentially passes through 5 different phases
1.Active phase-the app is in foreground and running code,i.e using cpu cycle
2.Background phase-once the home button is pressed once the active app goes in the back ground,but still running codes
3.Suspended phase-the app is now not running the code but is still cached in the memory
4.Inactive-not cached in the memory
4.Not running-the obvious,the app has not started
Now Apple within its stone walled ios simply does not allow any app(there are exceptions,will explain them later)in the background phase to run code for a few seconds.
Any app which keeps on coding in the background and does not enter the suspended phase usually never sees the light of the Appstore.They are regarded as badly coded app[which is partially true for a mobile devices which always run on battery]

There are a few exceptions to this rule,
VOIPs like Skype,the default and some 3rd party music players and location based apps are allowed to run in the background phase.

This type of coding structure does have some advantages,the most important being better battery life.




Now coming to mighty Android,
The multitasking hero…
Unlike io.s this offspring of uncle Google actually does proper multi tasking,i.e an app can stay in back ground and can keep on coding[an kill the battery in the process]
The beauty of Android is the developer of an app can make an app code forcibly in the back ground[this particular part is extremely complicated and deals with broadcast receivers and service components…these things can actually help to develop potentially harmful malwares in wrong hands]
Now the funny part,
Android from GB days has matured enough to kill unnecessary background codings automatically to free up memory and thus virtually buried once extremely popular app called ATK(we all have used it at certaint point of time,aint we?)
Now despite this smart app management in GB,Google has actually gone a step backwords,to satisfy a few of their idiot fanboys[and they are no less in number than the isheep]
The new multi tasking look alike thing in ICS[swiping apps away like cards to remove them from the list]may give the users a mighty feeling that they are removing an app themselves and freeing up some memory,but in reality it is just as rudimentary as io.s.

This true multitasking ability is definitely beneficial for some[who actually know how to use it] but do take a hit on the battery.
And the absolute lawlessness of Android market[I refuse to call it playshop] with thousands of apps coded by 5th or 6th grade students can turn this beautiful multitasking ability of Android into its Achilis heel.

I would also like to write a few words on real multitasking mobile oses like the beautiful Web os or Meego,but my fingers are aching after writing such a long post(may be the second longest I have ever wrote)

Another thing mate!DO NOT ever show disrespect for xda.even in the Android madness,it still has some wonderful developers.
Learn to respect others,increase your knowledge.you will be loved and respected in return.
Anorion
Anorion #15
May 2, 2012 at 7:28 PM
:rofl: these are phones
try not to get personal ppl

multitasking is better on the iOS even though it does not "support multi-tasking"
WolVish
WolVish #16
May 2, 2012 at 7:35 PM
I think MeeGo Harmattan should be included in this topic. I've been using Nokia N9 for a week now and I find it way better than Android in Multi tasking. It still has tonnes of bugs, but it was DOA and is getting better with updates. It works really cool with an outdated 1 GHz Single core proccy and 1 GB of RAM.
red dragon
May 2, 2012 at 7:40 PM
multitasking is better on the iOS even though it does not "support multi-tasking"
It seems very few people understand this simple thing:wink:

I think MeeGo Harmattan should be included in this topic. I've been using Nokia N9 for a week now and I find it way better than Android in Multi tasking. It still has tonnes of bugs, but it was DOA and is getting better with updates. It works really cool with an outdated 1 GHz Single core proccy and 1 GB of RAM.
Absolutely!The best two multitasking o.ses are dead now!
AndroidFan
May 2, 2012 at 10:24 PM
Java is killing Android. Virtual Machine interpreter sucks.

One day Google will move on to support better languages like C, C++ and C#... Until then, will have to throw more and more powerful hardware at the problem...
Sujeet
Sujeet #19
May 2, 2012 at 11:26 PM
Java is killing Android. Virtual Machine interpreter sucks.

One day Google will move on to support better languages like C, C++ and C#... Until then, will have to throw more and more powerful hardware at the problem...

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/technology-news/156411-android-ported-c.html#post1641664
Anorion
Anorion #20
May 2, 2012 at 11:50 PM
Yep droids are running away from sun into microsoft's hands
NoasArcAngel
May 3, 2012 at 12:02 AM
about the xda was going a. bit too far but I never mentioned multitasking in efficiency.. and the guy using n9 ... your phone has a 1ghz cortex a8 which is powerful even by todays standards
R2K
R2K #22
May 3, 2012 at 7:19 PM
I have no idea about the technical details but who ever have used both droid and iOS atleast a single time will definitely agree that iOS is definitely the faster one.
thetechfreak
May 3, 2012 at 7:44 PM
Need to make a few points here
NoasArcAngel said:
by Droid I mean android only I
thought it sounded more macho
No it doesnt. Atleast not on the thread title
NoasArcAngel said:
so I guess that settles this then .....
android ftw apple ios-noob
too immature of a comment
R2K said:
I have no idea about the technical details but who ever have used both droid and iOS atleast a single time will definitely agree that iOS is definitely the faster one.
Correct. There are many reasons here which already have been shouted on many other threads. To start with a particular iOS has very limited devices to be compatible with. So the coding will be direct to meet that specific type of hardware. Secondly it also doesnt have a proper filesystem. All song names are some random charecters. Applications are directly stored in .IPA form.
coolpcguy
coolpcguy #24
May 3, 2012 at 10:42 PM
Secondly it also doesnt have a proper filesystem. All song names are some random charecters.

That's completely false. there's a perfectly fine *nix style filesystem that's protected by a jail. Song names as random characters is the way iTunes does protect-using-obscurity.

Applications are directly stored in .IPA form.

which is nothing but an archive, much like an apk. Please research before posting.
O
oval_man #25
May 6, 2012 at 1:22 PM
The very advantage of Android is even a common man buy and use it,

But,iOS is meant for only 'Wealthy People'

Be happy with what you have!
AndroidFan
May 6, 2012 at 5:04 PM
That's completely false. there's a perfectly fine *nix style filesystem that's protected by a jail. Song names as random characters is the way iTunes does protect-using-obscurity.
.

1. What is the meaning of "protect-using-obscurity"? That's totally rubbish talk...

2. Which file manager do you use on your jailbroken iPhone?
coolpcguy
coolpcguy #27
May 6, 2012 at 7:33 PM
1. What is the meaning of "protect-using-obscurity"? That's totally rubbish talk...

2. Which file manager do you use on your jailbroken iPhone?

1. Security through obscurity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Don't have an iPhone now, when I did used to ssh into the device. Didn't use file managers.
AndroidFan
May 6, 2012 at 7:48 PM
1. Security through obscurity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't want a wikipedia link... I want to know what it means with regards to iOS... What kind of security does it provide by hiding mp3 files and videos and PDF files in obscure formats?

2. Don't have an iPhone now, when I did used to ssh into the device. Didn't use file managers.

If iOS has a file system, why can't you name a couple of good file managers? I can list a dozen file managers in Android...
Anorion
Anorion #29
May 6, 2012 at 7:55 PM
iOS ecosystem full of el cheapos
you would expect some great and awesome apps at the $2.99 price point or the $5.99 pricepoint... but nope what you do get is everything from Asphalt to World of Goo dropping prices to $0.99
some like lane splitter, star dunk, canon cat, tiny tower use a freemium model where basically you get the game for free
there are price drops and sales and new releases every hour and fans have to watch NZ, Canada and US stores apart from the Store of the country they are in

so you would expect people with premium phones to demand a lot of premium apps... but nope this isnt the case, everyone votes with their wallets irrespective of how fat it is

all of this reeeks of cheapness

Apple is not for the rich. thats very unfair. Its not a luxury phone maker like vertu, nor does it charge extra just to slap on its logo, like a ferrari or gucci phone
they just offer products that are genuinely ahead of the market
every time there is an iOS update, it brings new stuff to the table, many iOS users do not like this, and just keep using the version they are comfortable with
every time there is an Android update, they fix bugs, make performance improvements, and cover all the holes they left when they pushed it out... you feel you are finally getting what your phone deserves with every subsequent update... but its never really there... all this should have come with the phone in the first place tho

when you get an iPhone, the compelete package is in your hands, now, no matter which droid in the world you pick up, the phone will be completed only on the next update

so basically droids are not democratic, they are cheap because they are incomplete phones pushed to the market, you still pay about 2/3 the price and more and get only 1/3 the functionality or less less when compared to an iPhone.
coolpcguy
coolpcguy #30
May 6, 2012 at 8:27 PM
I don't want a wikipedia link... I want to know what it means with regards to iOS... What kind of security does it provide by hiding mp3 files and videos and PDF files in obscure formats?

eh, where does it hide in "obscure formats"? It's just the filenames are obscured, not the content itself. I never claimed it provided "security" - go back and read my original comment:

Song names as random characters is the way iTunes does protect-using-obscurity.

In plain English: it hides the filenames by assigning a hash to each file. Why? I don't know. That's how they've written iTunes. To verify: Open the the iTunes XML file & corresponding SQLite files which holds the mapping.



If iOS has a file system, why can't you name a couple of good file managers? I can list a dozen file managers in Android...

What part of "filesystem is hidden to a casual user" is hard to understand? And so you can list dozen file managers for Android. OK. So what?
Sujeet
Sujeet #31
May 6, 2012 at 11:31 PM
iOS ecosystem full of el cheapos
you would expect some great and awesome apps at the $2.99 price point or the $5.99 pricepoint... but nope what you do get is everything from Asphalt to World of Goo dropping prices to $0.99
some like lane splitter, star dunk, canon cat, tiny tower use a freemium model where basically you get the game for free
there are price drops and sales and new releases every hour and fans have to watch NZ, Canada and US stores apart from the Store of the country they are in
What are trying to convey?
Apple is not for the rich. thats very unfair. Its not a luxury phone maker like vertu, nor does it charge extra just to slap on its logo, like a ferrari or gucci phone.
Phones which are Branded as LUXURY PHONES are not the only phones meant for Rich.
Though your point is correct.

they just offer products that are genuinely ahead of the market
every time there is an iOS update, it brings new stuff to the table, many iOS users do not like this, and just keep using the version they are comfortable with
Though you are talking about Ios.
I should mention that speaking of now Apple is more inclined to "Evolution and Improvement rather than Innovation".
Reiterating same product with some extra features Like in case of Iphone 4S or New Ipad 2012 is nothing sort of Groundbreaking which is what they were known for in the past.
Every successful brand is more or less stuck with the very same PHENOMENON.
I wont say much about this.There has been an Editorial By Raabo over the very same thing in recent issue of Digit.It was very nicely put up.

every time there is an Android update, they fix bugs, make performance improvements, and cover all the holes they left when they pushed it out... you feel you are finally getting what your phone deserves with every subsequent update... but its never really there... all this should have come with the phone in the first place tho

when you get an iPhone, the complete package is in your hands, now, no matter which droid in the world you pick up, the phone will be completed only on the next update
No OS is Perfect.No One is Perfect.
Everything is meant to evolve with Time.
And mind that nor IOS neither Android can ever be claimed to be free of every possible bug in any of the Update whatsoever.
so basically droids are not democratic, they are cheap because they are incomplete phones pushed to the market, you still pay about 2/3 the price and more and get only 1/3 the functionality or less less when compared to an iPhone.
Android is Cheap Because so is the Will Of Google.
It is licensed in same way.
It is flexible.

Ios is not because Apple is stuck with their Sick Mentality of restricting every work environment by their constraints.

You cant even develop Apps for IOS without owning a MAC.Anything more????
Anorion
Anorion #32
May 6, 2012 at 11:52 PM
^yeah Apple is crippled by the patent mechanism, so is every other company out there
Droids are a walled desert... the options are easy piracy and google checkout. The former is the difference.

Apple works because the publishers/developers and the consumers have enough respect for each other so as not to con each other. or both used macs. something like that, in any case, everything.. every single form of content from music, to apps, to e-books are getting financially viable at the 0.99 price point, isnt this great? Also the connection is very direct. You post a bug on twitter, its pushed out in an update, sometimes a delta update hours later. This is all possible on droids ofc, but there are a handful doing it there.
Sujeet
Sujeet #33
May 7, 2012 at 12:16 AM
^^The 0.99 Cent Thing.
Is the best thing that ever happened to Apple and The Consumers.
red dragon
May 11, 2012 at 11:07 PM
I don't want a wikipedia link... I want to know what it means with regards to iOS... What kind of security does it provide by hiding mp3 files and videos and PDF files in obscure formats?



If iOS has a file system, why can't you name a couple of good file managers? I can list a dozen file managers in Android...
1.iOS has a perfectly fine file system
2.iFile is a decent file manager.
3.Show some respect to cpg,he is one of the very few knowledgable people around here.
4.Having a million file managers does not mean anything,a single manager like RE is usually enough.
ritvij
ritvij #35
May 12, 2012 at 12:02 PM
iOS ecosystem full of el cheapos
you would expect some great and awesome apps at the $2.99 price point or the $5.99 pricepoint... but nope what you do get is everything from Asphalt to World of Goo dropping prices to $0.99
some like lane splitter, star dunk, canon cat, tiny tower use a freemium model where basically you get the game for free
there are price drops and sales and new releases every hour and fans have to watch NZ, Canada and US stores apart from the Store of the country they are in

so you would expect people with premium phones to demand a lot of premium apps... but nope this isnt the case, everyone votes with their wallets irrespective of how fat it is

all of this reeeks of cheapness

Apple is not for the rich. thats very unfair. Its not a luxury phone maker like vertu, nor does it charge extra just to slap on its logo, like a ferrari or gucci phone
they just offer products that are genuinely ahead of the market
every time there is an iOS update, it brings new stuff to the table, many iOS users do not like this, and just keep using the version they are comfortable with
every time there is an Android update, they fix bugs, make performance improvements, and cover all the holes they left when they pushed it out... you feel you are finally getting what your phone deserves with every subsequent update... but its never really there... all this should have come with the phone in the first place tho

when you get an iPhone, the compelete package is in your hands, now, no matter which droid in the world you pick up, the phone will be completed only on the next update

so basically droids are not democratic, they are cheap because they are incomplete phones pushed to the market, you still pay about 2/3 the price and more and get only 1/3 the functionality or less less when compared to an iPhone.

very well said.. :+1: after reading all the posts, i just couldn't get one thing the true multitasking thing.. can anyone give me a real life "practical" example of any app that takes advantage of true multitasking on android..
AndroidFan
May 12, 2012 at 1:09 PM
1.iOS has a perfectly fine file system
2.iFile is a decent file manager.
3.Show some respect to cpg,he is one of the very few knowledgable people around here.
4.Having a million file managers does not mean anything,a single manager like RE is usually enough.

Android is better than iOS in many ways. That was the whole point of the arguement. Every Operating system has a file system, everyone knows that. The point is, it is not user accessible. An ordinary non-geek iPhone user cannot transfer files to the phone without iTunes.

Its a lot simpler, easier, better on an Android device. Existence of many file managers prove how much better and robust Android OS is...
Anorion
Anorion #37
May 12, 2012 at 1:24 PM
fire up the browser, youtube, facebook, twitter, gmail, switch to NFS Undercover, change audio settings to play only sounds, and continue playing, go back to the browser, create a couple of new tabs, open up an e-book reader, select a book, flip through a few pages, switch to twitter, check gmail, open up G+, play vector runner for a couple of seconds, switch to facebook, fire up Saavn, start playing vector runner again

... you can keep doing that on iOS forever, droids would fry up pretty fast, the game would definitely begin to frame and hang at this point

Droids have a task manager, or free task managing apps, or custom shells that handle part of the tasks, or the manufacturer may bundle in some kind applications to handle the mail and social networking... plus the latest version takes away control from everybody, so its really not fair to compare, they are just two very different ways to use the device. Droids dont really support multi-tasking either. you cant write an app to unfold proteins and keep it running in the bg, while you do other stuff
ritvij
ritvij #38
May 12, 2012 at 1:32 PM
fire up the browser, youtube, facebook, twitter, gmail, switch to NFS Undercover, change audio settings to play only sounds, and continue playing, go back to the browser, create a couple of new tabs, open up an e-book reader, select a book, flip through a few pages, switch to twitter, check gmail, open up G+, play vector runner for a couple of seconds, switch to facebook, fire up Saavn, start playing vector runner again

... you can keep doing that on iOS forever, droids would fry up pretty fast, the game would definitely begin to frame and hang at this point

damn right you can.. i can do this all on my 3 year old 3gs running on iOS 5.1 without breaking a sweat!:cool:
ithehappy
ithehappy #39
May 16, 2012 at 1:42 AM
There is NO competition. iOS is more efficient than Android, undoubtedly, more stable and more polished too.
coolpcguy
coolpcguy #41
May 16, 2012 at 11:16 AM
An ordinary non-geek iPhone user cannot transfer files to the phone without iTunes.

iOS is built with the idea that a user shouldn't have to worry about the filesystem. What part of that you *still* don't get?

Oh, btw, do you know with ICS, the filesystem isn't accessible in the same that it used to be with GB & below? Does that make Android "less robust" now?

What a farce. Come up with better arguments than "presence of file managers makes Android more robust". That's the most ridiculous, stupid & laughable thing I've heard.

/Galaxy S2 user.
AndroidFan
May 16, 2012 at 12:36 PM
iOS is built with the idea that a user shouldn't have to worry about the filesystem. What part of that you *still* don't get?

Oh, btw, do you know with ICS, the filesystem isn't accessible in the same that it used to be with GB & below? Does that make Android "less robust" now?

What a farce. Come up with better arguments than "presence of file managers makes Android more robust". That's the most ridiculous, stupid & laughable thing I've heard.

/Galaxy S2 user.

You have lost track of what the entire discussion was originally based on... Go read what I have written in this thread.

Android sacrifices efficiency for flexibility of being on many hardware platforms, different configurations, different chipsets, different resolutions... It s highly customizable without even rooting the device. You can plug and play all your documents, images, videos without the need of a bloated software like iTunes or Zune.

People don't worry about the file system. They need access to it. People have used computers for almost 15 years now, and I don't remember anyone complaining about user accessible file system. It gives you a lot more freedom, which iPhone and WP7 users don't have.

I had a hell of a time transferring videos downloaded on my Dad's iPad on MXTube, or downloading pictures from my sister's Samsung Focus to the PC. In contrast, Android is super easy... drag and drop, Ctrl C. Ctrl V... Nothing can be as intuitive as that...

Add to that, Android has true multitasking, not freeze state like iOS or WP7. In Settings >> Developer Options, you have the option to select how many processes are allowed to run in the background (if you are on ICS). These things consume resources, and so Android may not be as fluid or battery efficient as iOS or WP7 devices. But it is a lot more robust.

That was the entire discussion about... It was not a dick waving fight...

ICS uses MTP to transfer files to the phone internal memory, just like all the other earlier GB phones did. External SD cards are still plug and play. Test it on your Galaxy S2, if you have upgraded to ICS.
Anorion
Anorion #43
May 16, 2012 at 1:08 PM
^
the file system point is true, but physically being in control of individual files is a traditional approach, than how data works in the iOS ecosystem. But if you get used to it, it has many many features that are absent in android, especially cloud. You click pictures on any one of your devices, they all get stored in the same place, and are accessible on any devices depending on your settings. Your purchases are also locked to the store, so even if you lose all your data, you can get it all back from there. Videos, music are accessible through a variety of options, including sales, podcasts and apps. Apple can automatically handle the data by deleting stuff you have listened/watched, and prompting you to consume the stuff you havent. Documents, notepad files, or other user data also backs up with the cloud, so they can be retrieved from any device easily. This frees up a lot more time to actually do all these things. Also, you need to use a droid with a PC, you can use an iPhone that never ever plugs in to a PC.


droids are not "true multi-taskers" either, they are getting closer and closer to the iPhone version of multi-tasking, especially in Ice cream sandwich
Android now has a process life cycle mechanism that very much mimics apple's approach
N
noob #44
May 16, 2012 at 1:16 PM
You click pictures on any one of your devices, they all get stored in the same place, and are accessible on any devices depending on your settings. Your purchases are also locked to the store, so even if you lose all your data, you can get it all back from there. Videos, music are accessible through a variety of options, including sales, podcasts and apps.

For pics ..its even there in Android...For purchased apps..yes i can install it again on other phones too ..gmail , contacts , my sms...all are in cloud too and can be restored at will. Speaking about music files and vdo's , put it on GDrive or Dropbox.


Android now has a process life cycle mechanism that very much mimics apple's approach
Any detailed explanation ? As far as i know , iOS and WP has almost same process life cycle. (freezing apps etc ) I doubt if you can claim it as copying/mimicking Apple. Infact i would say MS is one who is mimicking Apple way too much..App store via zune...dependency on Zune etc.....
Sujeet
Sujeet #45
May 16, 2012 at 1:19 PM
^^
Microsoft has always tried to Mimic the essence of Apple Products for their Cosumer Services and Products ever since their inception.:wink:
ritvij
ritvij #46
May 16, 2012 at 6:07 PM
Add to that, Android has true multitasking, not freeze state like iOS or WP7. In Settings >> Developer Options, you have the option to select how many processes are allowed to run in the background (if you are on ICS). These things consume resources, and so Android may not be as fluid or battery efficient as iOS or WP7 devices. But it is a lot more robust.

i have seen you raving about its true multitasking capabilities.. please tell me which app on android takes advantage of this and executes better on it??
skeletor
skeletor #47
May 16, 2012 at 7:27 PM
i have seen you raving about its true multitasking capabilities.. please tell me which app on android takes advantage of this and executes better on it??

*play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.xeustechnologies.android.kws&hl=en