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Explain how children below 18 open website accounts: HC to govt

65 posts · originally from https://geek.digit.in/community/threads/explain-how-children-below-18-open-website-accounts-hc-to-govt.173129/

theserpent
theserpent Original post #1
Apr 26, 2013 at 12:47 PM
New Delhi, Apr 25 (PTI): The Delhi High Court today sought the Centre's response on a plea questioning how children below the age of 18 years are allowed to open an account on social networking sites including Facebook, even though Indian laws do not permit it.

The court also asked two US-based entities- Facebook Inc and Google Inc--to reply to the plea of former BJP ideologue K N Govindacharya seeking an order for recovery of taxes from the websites on their income from operations in India.

A bench of justices B D Ahmed and Vibhu Bakhru asked Sumit Pushkarna, the counsel for the Centre, to make the government's stand clear on the issue through an affidavit within 10 days and posted the matter for May 13.

"How children below 18 years can have an agreement with any of the social network sites including Facebook? The Union of India is directed to file an affidavit on the issue within 10 days," the bench said.

The court also said, "Both Facebook Inc and Google Inc are US-based entities and are hereby impleaded as respondents. Notices to be issued to the newly added parties."

The bench passed the order after hearing the argument of Govindacharya's counsel Veerag Gupta that children below 18 are getting into an agreement with the social networking sites to open an account which is against the Indian Majority Act, the Indian Contract Act and also the Information and Technology Act.

Due to non-verification of users, more than eight crore of Facebook users across the world were found to be "fake", which the website admitted before the US authority, Gupta submitted.

The Government of India is not taking any action against the foreign companies which have their Indian operations, the counsel contended.

Govindacharya, at present a patron of 'Rashtriya Swabhimaan Aandolan', has in a public interest litigation (PIL) also sought directions to the Centre and the two websites to "ensure proper accounting compliances as per RBI guidelines".

"Facebook's gross revenue for previous year was 37 billion USD approximately but they are not paying due taxes to the Indian government," the petition said.

The petition also sought a direction to ensure safety of the data of 50 million Indian users, which was transferred "to the US and is being used for commercial gains in violation of the right to privacy."

It contended that a writ of Mandamus should be issued to "ensure verification of all existing users and future new members of social networking websites with instructions not to do agreements with children below 18 years".

The petition also sought creation of a national register of persons indulging in sexual offences and heinous crimes and stopping such persons from joining social networking websites.

The PIL, which listed the alleged violations of various terms by the websites, also sought a direction to the Centre to ensure that government officers "do not use social networking websites through government computers" as they may pose a threat to sensitive data and national computer network.

"As per telecommunication minister's statement in Parliament, the government lost four billion USD every year due to cyber crimes and approximately 90 million government websites were hacked in last three years," it said.

Explain how children below 18 open website accounts: HC to govt

So what I understood is, According to the LAW a under 18 person can't open a account?
Flash
Flash #2
Apr 26, 2013 at 4:34 PM
"How children below 18 years can have an agreement with any of the social network sites including Facebook? The Union of India is directed to file an affidavit on the issue within 10 days," the bench said.

By clicking "Accept" without reading the "terms & conditions". :mrgreen:
I mean how fb/G can verify a user?

All they can do is verify the "DOB" that one enters during Registration process..

One possible suggestion i wanna give to HC:
"Ask users to upload their Birth Certificate copy during Registration process of a website." :lol:
theserpent
Apr 26, 2013 at 4:39 PM
IDK, What is wrong with the GOVERMENT, All lame rules.
Most the kids are mature by 15.
This rule is RIDICULOUS
theserpent
Apr 26, 2013 at 4:47 PM
Better Idea is to Leave this country,what's the next LAW? Students can't enjoy?Use mobiles,computers?
Empirial
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:02 PM
I've seen some minors signing up with wrong DOB so my question to our Govt. is that "Do you've enough time & resource to contact each & everyone for verification?".
Desmond
Desmond #6
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:05 PM
What's wrong if someone underage signs up on social networking sites with a fake DOB? I mean what exactly is bothering the Govt/HC?
Thunder
Thunder #7
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM
The government is going Mad. What they want is to restrict freedom of expression.
Simply Stupid.
Desmond
Desmond #8
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM
On second thought, why is the government/HC more concerned with minors signing up on social networking sites than corrupt Indians opening secret Swiss bank accounts?
chaitanya2106
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:38 PM
This is a stupid order & not expected from a HC. What harm can Fb/G underage users do to the security of this country?
theserpent
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:39 PM
On second thought, why is the government/HC more concerned with minors signing up on social networking sites than corrupt Indians opening secret Swiss bank accounts?

Simple they lack brains

This is a stupid suggestion & not expected from a HC. What harm can Fb/G underage users do to the security of this country?

These are the youth of the country, If the goverment accepts it, they are digging their own grave
Flash
Flash #11
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:40 PM
This is a stupid order & not expected from a HC. What harm can Fb/G underage users do to the security of this country?
No offense.. I thought you would support HC.
Atleast you're with us on this. :mrgreen:
theserpent
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:44 PM
This is a stupid order & not expected from a HC. What harm can Fb/G underage users do to the security of this country?

WOW, your first sensible post :) No offense
Desmond
Desmond #13
Apr 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM
From above article :

Facebook's gross revenue for previous year was 37 billion USD approximately but they are not paying due taxes to the Indian government," the petition said.

Now I get what this is about. As always, its about the money.

But, the Interwebs is a politically neutral place, how do they expect to gain taxes for online interactions?
theserpent
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:05 PM
From where do these lawyers come from :|
H
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:17 PM
actually if you go through that news report again, you will notice that it mentions three acts the IT act, the contract act and the majority act. The majority and contract act were formed in 1870's . So specifically its basically the breach of contract that is breaking the rule by entering falsified information. Apart from that many users especially stalkers and pedophiles can enter random details and harass children and girls.

but on the other hand, its ironic. They talk about computer networks and we are still living in the FUP world.
skeletor
skeletor #18
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:25 PM
Indian culture is to blame.
CommanderShawnzer
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:26 PM
Yo Zuckerberg,don't be such a tight-fisted Jew,man!Pay up dem Netas and Judges so they stop barking at you for the green(or the blue,beige or pink ;-) )
theserpent
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:29 PM
I'm wondering what the next PIL will say? Ban smartphones?
CommanderShawnzer
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM
I'm wondering what the next PIL will say? Ban smartphones?

No,no theres too much money involved in that,One fine day the person who filed the PIL will take his case back and laugh all the way to the bank with HTC/Samsung/Sony and Crapple's money(*bribe)
Nerevarine
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:36 PM
Soon they will ban TDF :D
ganeshnokiae63
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:37 PM
This is Ridiculous
last Year a message From FB quoting
"You are Above 18 and You can open any adult links...blah blah"
even we accepted the "rights and conditions" on opening the Account...
this doesn't make Sense
theserpent
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:42 PM
Wondering what will the "other" goverment do next year if they come to power?
Nipun
Nipun #28
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:44 PM
This is Ridiculous
last Year a message From FB quoting
"You are Above 18 and You can open any adult links...blah blah"
even we accepted the "rights and conditions" on opening the Account...
this doesn't make Sense

What are you trying to say?
CommanderShawnzer
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:45 PM
Wondering what will the "other" goverment do next year if they come to power?

India will become a Dictatorship like China(in terms of development, not type of government)
And Christians and Muslims will be exterminated like Jews during Hitler's time :cry:
Atheist will vanish :grin: everything will be Hindu
If you are caught eating beef you will be hanged :rolleyes:
ganeshnokiae63
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:47 PM
i mean FB has its right and Government too then why should FB accept the details provided by me?
CommanderShawnzer
Apr 28, 2013 at 8:50 PM
One day,Google will also banned.Why?
Just type "pornos" in the Image search and see what results you get :grin:
H
Apr 28, 2013 at 10:57 PM
One day,Google will also banned.Why?
Just type "pornos" in the Image search and see what results you get :grin:

it would have been banned long ago, they just dont know how to use google

search for

child rape
SaiyanGoku
Apr 29, 2013 at 12:30 AM
in India, this is what happens:
to vote: have age 18+
to have driving license: have age 18+
to have full control of your bank account: have age 18+
to watch A rated movies: have age 18+
to have s*x legally: have age 18+
to get punished under law as a non juvenile: have age 18+
to get a PAN card: have age 18+
to be recognised as a grown up: have age 18+ and don't watch anime, play games on pc/consoles etc
to get arms license: have age 18+
to earn from working in a shop: have age 18+ or else its child labour
to stand in elections: have age 18+

they should rather restrict the upper age limit/retirement age to 65 for all posts in the government including the PM, president, governor, CM, etc
Desmond
Desmond #35
Apr 29, 2013 at 12:40 AM
in India, this is what happens:
to vote: have age 18+
to have driving license: have age 18+
to have full control of your bank account: have age 18+
to watch A rated movies: have age 18+
to have s*x legally: have age 18+
to get punished under law as a non juvenile: have age 18+
to get a PAN card: have age 18+
to be recognised as a grown up: have age 18+ and don't watch anime, play games on pc/consoles etc
to get arms license: have age 18+
to earn from working in a shop: have age 18+ or else its child labour
to stand in elections: have age 18+

they should rather restrict the upper age limit/retirement age to 65 for all posts in the government including the PM, president, governor, CM, etc

Nope, you can have an independent bank account at the age of 12 onwards. I had mine opened at that age. No, it was not joint.

India will become a Dictatorship like China(in terms of development, not type of government)
And Christians and Muslims will be exterminated like Jews during Hitler's time :cry:
Atheist will vanish :grin: everything will be Hindu
If you are caught eating beef you will be hanged :rolleyes:

Indeed, Congress for all its flaws is a secular party. And I would prefer my country to be secular. It would be even better if there were an Atheistic party.
gagan_kumar
Apr 29, 2013 at 12:51 AM
i think what governments is fearing the most is the rise of people as through the use of social media such as Fb and google + people are getting updated about the situations in the country at greater speed then before..
also using social media people are expressing their views on governments policies ........ people have become more aware so there are more outrages of people like recently( in the rape case) previously hardly few people gets known abt these things and govt. would hav no pressure on taking actions..... but now the scenario is changed!!! i think this is what govt. is fearing abt
Desmond
Desmond #37
Apr 29, 2013 at 1:01 AM
i think what governments is fearing the most is the rise of people as through the use of social media such as Fb and google + people are getting updated about the situations in the country at greater speed then before..
also using social media people are expressing their views on governments policies ........ people have become more aware so there are more outrages of people like recently( in the rape case) previously hardly few people gets known abt these things and govt. would hav no pressure on taking actions..... but now the scenario is changed!!! i think this is what govt. is fearing abt

Amen!
Faun
Faun #38
Apr 29, 2013 at 8:23 AM
in India, this is what happens:
to be recognised as a grown up: have age 18+ and don't watch anime, play games on pc/consoles etc

hehe...I am a child.
V
Vignesh B #39
Apr 29, 2013 at 8:31 AM
Where do the guys filing these PILs get so much time? Don't they have any other work to do?
Our country is suffering from so many other atrocities. Try stopping them rather than asking the govt to look out for under age people using social networks, blaming porn for the rapes etc.
Indians, we'll never change. :/
Nipun
Nipun #40
Apr 29, 2013 at 9:27 AM
to have full control of your bank account: have age 18+
Nope. It's 13.
to get a PAN card: have age 18+
Nope. No age limit.
to earn from working in a shop: have age 18+ or else its child labour
Nope. 15, if it's not hazardous.
to stand in elections: have age 18+
It's 25+ for MP/MLA.

Where do the guys filing these PILs get so much time? Don't they have any other work to do?

Jolly LLB.

It would be even better if there were an Atheistic party.

:thumbs:
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM
Nope. It's 13.

@offtopic

i dont think you are allowed to open and operate an independent bank account if you are less than 18.

The account access is still restricted under the guardianship. The chequekbooks are issued to the guardian in the name of under guardianship of the minor.

You are however allowed to withdraw money from ATM's and make payments.
Desmond
Desmond #42
Apr 29, 2013 at 10:45 AM
@offtopic

i dont think you are allowed to open and operate an independent bank account if you are less than 18.

The account access is still restricted under the guardianship. The chequekbooks are issued to the guardian in the name of under guardianship of the minor.

You are however allowed to withdraw money from ATM's and make payments.

I got my independent bank account when I was 12. My dad is a banker and he got it opened for me. I still use it to this day.
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 10:49 AM
I got my independent bank account when I was 12. My dad is a banker and he got it opened for me. I still use it to this day.

that must be the scenario long time back. In the past couple of years things have changed. I had to resubmit all of my documents again for KYC even when i opened my account only 2 years ago and still submitted all of them. Maybe you can ask your dad about this

EDIT :

could you sign cheques and withdraw money?
Kl@w-24
Kl@w-24 #44
Apr 29, 2013 at 10:51 AM
Meh. Just another tactic to get a share of that massive revenue. Trying to arm-twist FB into submission - give us a slice or we'll ban your India operations because you're allowing "minors" to access your website.
Nipun
Nipun #45
Apr 29, 2013 at 11:05 AM
@offtopic

i dont think you are allowed to open and operate an independent bank account if you are less than 18.

The account access is still restricted under the guardianship. The chequekbooks are issued to the guardian in the name of under guardianship of the minor.

You are however allowed to withdraw money from ATM's and make payments.

I am 16, and have a fully independent bank account(that's what the forms say). They didn't take signatures of my guardians or parents either. Yes, I'm allowed to withdraw and deposit money any time, using ATM, net banking or anything. :)
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM
I am 16, and have a fully independent bank account(that's what the forms say). They didn't take signatures of my guardians or parents either. Yes, I'm allowed to withdraw and deposit money any time, using ATM, net banking or anything. :)

Untitled Document

i read about what i wrote there from here.

EDIT :

do you parents also have an account with the same bank ? if your parents dont have an account with the bank its not possible. And the account is not truly independent.

your signature i.e. you are not authorized to create FD's and make NEFT transfers

therefore the account is part independent under supervision from your parents.
Desmond
Desmond #47
Apr 29, 2013 at 11:19 AM
that must be the scenario long time back. In the past couple of years things have changed. I had to resubmit all of my documents again for KYC even when i opened my account only 2 years ago and still submitted all of them. Maybe you can ask your dad about this

EDIT :

could you sign cheques and withdraw money?

(ii) A savings bank account may be opened in the single name of a minor and may be operated upon by minor, if he/she has completed the age of-10-years and is able to read and write. Maximum balance to the credit of such account should not exceed at any time Rs.1,00,000/-.For accounts of minors above-14-years,there is no limit to maximum balance.

Source : Bank of Baroda - India's International Bank - Personal Banking Services - Deposits - Savings - Baroda Bachat Mitra

Perhaps different banks have different rules.

I didn't apply for a cheque book but I could withdraw money using the withdrawal form or deposit money anytime. This was before there were ATMs so had to do everything from the bank.

Edit : I think we have gone WAY....off topic.
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 11:41 AM
yes i feel like a chartered accountant :lol:
Anorion
Anorion #49
Apr 29, 2013 at 1:40 PM
What is the legal age as per fb's own tos? 13?
Govt should ban fb for people over 18. Problem solved.
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 1:42 PM
What is the legal age as per fb's own tos? 13?
Govt should ban fb for people over 18. Problem solved.

this is not a joke, its pretty serious. If this law ever gets passed then you can guess what is coming next.
Nipun
Nipun #51
Apr 29, 2013 at 1:43 PM
this is not a joke, its pretty serious. If this law ever gets passed then you can guess what is coming next.

A nic-designed FB? :lol:
Anorion
Anorion #53
Apr 29, 2013 at 1:57 PM
Its to make it safer for kids. Indian govt actually asking for safety of accounts, and that makes it totalitarian - as against fb which totally has so much competition.
It can be easily done on a systemic level, by just tracking the age and having age appropriate security and access features.

But fb is not allowed to mine information or track anyone under 13 by the laws under which it operates.
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 2:02 PM
Its to make it safer for kids. Indian govt actually asking for safety of accounts, and that makes it totalitarian - as against fb which totally has so much competition.
It can be easily done on a systemic level, by just tracking the age and having age appropriate security and access features.

But fb is not allowed to mine information or track anyone under 13 by the laws under which it operates.

well, how can one put into place these suggestions?
maybe instead of sarcasm you should try posting literally.
It helps.
A lot.
Desmond
Desmond #55
Apr 29, 2013 at 2:04 PM
Its to make it safer for kids. Indian govt actually asking for safety of accounts, and that makes it totalitarian - as against fb which totally has so much competition.
It can be easily done on a systemic level, by just tracking the age and having age appropriate security and access features.

But fb is not allowed to mine information or track anyone under 13 by the laws under which it operates.

How will you do that? By asking questions only adults are capable of answering?

Kinda reminds me of the Leisure Suit Larry games.
Anorion
Anorion #56
Apr 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM
Make it ok for kids to reveal age, no need to hide it

Not gonna happen
H
Apr 29, 2013 at 2:08 PM
Make it ok for kids to reveal age, no need to hide it

Not gonna happen

so revealing ones age is the only answer, out of the 3 points you just made? This exposes them further.
B
Apr 29, 2013 at 4:58 PM
Just like teenagers under 18 manage to smoke or drink, rarely a shop would verify their age.
Anorion
Anorion #59
Apr 30, 2013 at 3:10 PM
An under 18 cannot legally Agree to the fb contract... According to govt

Would you want your kid's photos be licensed to third parties for commercial purposes?
B
Apr 30, 2013 at 4:11 PM
IDK, What is wrong with the GOVERMENT, All lame rules.
Most the kids are mature by 15.
This rule is RIDICULOUS


Yeah some Kids are even mature by 7 years.. but you need to remember some like you never mature what ever be the age :p :-D
.... It was not about creating the accounts or using but the EULA's of the company which people need to accept while creating the account... The EULA is a legal agreement, for which the user will be liable.. that is the reason for the case...
Desmond
Desmond #61
Apr 30, 2013 at 4:14 PM
An under 18 cannot legally Agree to the fb contract... According to govt

Would you want your kid's photos be licensed to third parties for commercial purposes?

From FB's terms of service :

Facebook users provide their real names and information, and we need your help to keep it that way. Here are some commitments you make to us relating to registering and maintaining the security of your account:
1. You will not provide any false personal information on Facebook, or create an account for anyone other than yourself without permission.
2. You will not create more than one personal account.
3. If we disable your account, you will not create another one without our permission.
4. You will not use your personal timeline primarily for your own commercial gain, and will use a Facebook Page for such purposes.
5. You will not use Facebook if you are under 13.
6. You will not use Facebook if you are a convicted sex offender.
7. You will keep your contact information accurate and up-to-date.
8. You will not share your password (or in the case of developers, your secret key), let anyone else access your account, or do anything else that might jeopardize the security of your account.
9. You will not transfer your account (including any Page or application you administer) to anyone without first getting our written permission.
10. If you select a username or similar identifier for your account or Page, we reserve the right to remove or reclaim it if we believe it is appropriate (such as when a trademark owner complains about a username that does not closely relate to a user's actual name).

Well, FB has no problems for those above 13, so what is the government's problem?
H
Apr 30, 2013 at 4:32 PM
From FB's terms of service :



Well, FB has no problems for those above 13, so what is the government's problem?

its in conflict with the arrangements between the parties and the majority act. Still using old archaic laws to police the internet.
RCuber
RCuber #63
Apr 30, 2013 at 6:57 PM
7. You will keep your contact information accurate and up-to-date.

:facepalm: privacy
sygeek
sygeek #65
May 1, 2013 at 7:28 AM
Untitled Document

i read about what i wrote there from here.

EDIT :

do you parents also have an account with the same bank ? if your parents dont have an account with the bank its not possible. And the account is not truly independent.

your signature i.e. you are not authorized to create FD's and make NEFT transfers

therefore the account is part independent under supervision from your parents.
Yeah that is correct. Even I was not allowed to create a bank account in the past, unless it was a joint account. However, some time ago my father received a call from some bank asking if he's interested in opening a children's account. I am not aware of the clauses though.