i dare you..provided you have guts......

dear all...

yes, i dare you...all i want you is to watch it out..its quite a non-tech. issue..i want your opinion...

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-UpQTpvoes

and can you stay there still...cuz you all support it..iam asking you can you be a vegan.?? anyone there?

commente are welcome.. :cry:

A

may be ...

disturbing as hell

Well, I do the only thing I can - I avoid non-vegetarian food like the plague. Wish more people did that!

But it is actually the opposite. More and more people are become non-vegetarian now. Earlier, people from Haryana and Rajasthan used to be strict vegetarians but children our age who belong to those families have started eating non-vegetarian now.

u know acc. to peta , drinking cows milk is also non-veg. so we all are non-vegetarians.
LOL.

well..thanx for comments..there is lots of organizations working for their welfare like PFA, peta and more..

if this disturbing you as hell, what can you say about those animals..??

iam not compelling you to a vegan, but just want you know what is aroud you..really hell

chk this
*www.peta.org/about/faq-viv.asp

A

it is quite disturbing, but does it really happen everywhere in the world or these are just few places ??!!! It's quite hard to believe actually

~Phenom~ said:
u know acc. to peta , drinking cows milk is also non-veg. so we all are non-vegetarians.
LOL.

I stopped eating meat...eggs everything long ago but leaving dairy products is too difficult for me

Though I promise to drink only Amul milk from now on. At least we know that this is a co-operative society and women bringing milk to them must be treating their animals in much better way then those shown in the video

I just wish that people treating animals like that would rot in hell!!!

does anyone remembers pamela anderson campaigning against india leather goods saying cruelty towards animals

A real eye-opener. People will think about stopping eating meat the instant they see the video. The next day they'll be back with their normal routine.

I saw the video...and meh...not saying I support it, but I am a thorough non-veg eater.

Frankly, there are less cruel ways of getting meat for food and if I were to find out that the meat I buy comes from a joint like this, I'd buy it some place else. Having said that...you really cant afford to be a non-vegetarian and be squeamish about stuff like this.

atleast 70% of ppl from my state are non-veg

largest in India i guess.

Kerala is the only state in India where beef is consumed by almost every non vegetarian including hindus.

*wikitravel.org/fr/Kerala#Eat

faraaz said:
Having said that...you really cant afford to be a non-vegetarian and be squeamish about stuff like this.

Oh, I can assure you that non-vegetarian food is, generally, a lot more expensive than vegetarian food so not only can you afford it, it will actually be lighter on your pocket, you'll get healthier food and you won't be doing a heinous crime.

When I said afford...I meant, you can't afford to be SQUEAMISH...in the sense, if this kind of stuff is too much for you, then you can't be a non-vegetarian. I wasn't talking about it from a financial point of view...unless you were being sarcastic. In which case I don't get the connection.

LOL! You're skilled with the English Language. I was just playing around with words; I knew you did not mean anything financially by using the word "afford".

"if this kind of stuff is too much for you, then you can't be a non-vegetarian"
Oh, but is it so important to be a non-vegetarian?

To me it is...personally, I tried eating veg food, but I just cant live without non-veg. And since its kind of obvious that I am a Muslim, yes...I have slaughtered goats by my own hand, seen them skinned and cleaned from start to finish, and then cooked the meat with my own two hands. After this, I proceeded to eat the meat and enjoy it very much.

So yeah...these kind of videos don't REALLY make that much of an impact on me. Besides...for all you people out there who are watching this video and going "OMG!! This is so horribible!!!"...please be informed that this was made by PETA. Why is it a big deal that PETA made this video?? Check out THIS vid...*video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4118674585934009124&q=Bullshit+PETA

I would again like to remind you guys..the whole point of this thread is to keep an open mind. SO as receptive you were of the original animal cruelty vid, I implore you to watch the vid I posted with an open mind...

I was about to join PETA when I learned that like Greenpeace, they use a lot of misleading for propaganda effect.

By the way I turned near vegetarian a long time back as my ex-girlfriend was a vegetarian and also I didn't like the idea of ending an animals life for pleasuring my taste buds. These days I occasionally have non-veg when I go home mainly because our family is strictly fish and meat non-veg. Otherwise its veg with milk and eggs.

I sincerely appreciate that. Wish more people took such initiatives!

@aryayush: Seconded! PETA is a borderline terrorist organisation and their methods of operation in the US and Europe are extremely unethical! KUDOS Aberforth! I'm also glad you didn't join PETA!

(PS: ... he he he)

Uh... I was appreciating his initiative to go green and it is quite obvious you do not second that part.

What comes around goes around mate!

ok peta says not to drink milk..y.??.hav u ever think of that??

lemme tell u..animals in the dairy farms are treated xtreamly bad..they are injected with hormones and other medicines made their bones weaker, sometimes when they walkin by, bones break and they fall down...ok after that noone care abt them, they are facing death in a worser way that i cant tell u... even in india..!!

well iam a veggie, u can guess y..

most of you are orkut members...chk it out..

*www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=9646632

chk this thread also..
*www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=9646632&tid=2529895312623933648

realise folks..whts aroud you...

@prasad: You know...there was this girl who stayed in our dorms in Australia who was always trying to recruit us for Greenpeace. She was like pucca vegan and she kept asking us to not eat non-veg and stuff too.

Once, she got so damn inspired she decided to join up with her friends and institute a student-organized ban on non-veg food in the dorm kitchens for 1 week. She got a cease and desist order in 2 days...

The point I'm trying to make is, when you start getting all preachy, you MIGHT end up doing more harm than good. For instance, after the aforementioned incident, me and my roommate made it a point to cook beef steaks and have them with a generous helping of pepper sauce while she was having dinner. Nice? Not really...but thats human nature for you.

Chill man...

being Non-veg is not a sin!.in my state no one cares.may be some Nampoodiris and Iyers,sharmas.thats all.

@faraaz: I just saw the video you linked us to and here are a few reasons why it is aptly named "bullsh!t" because that is what it is...nothing more...nothing less!

1) Patty Strain: All the people like Patty Strain shown in the Video are living lavish life styles with such well groomed animals with them but what about the animals shown in the video posted in first post? Those animals are not to be taken care of? I can also wear awesome clothes and get my pictures clicked with good smelling animals and that would make me an animal saver?

2) Federal Animal Welfare Act: The video puts all the onus of protecting animals on "Federal Animal Welfare Act" but the video posted in first post just shows what kind of protection is being provided to animals. Is this law stopping people from castrating animals without giving them pain killers or marking them? No it is not helping!

3) Animals are not slaves: The video claims that Chickens can not be slaves but has these idiots ever considered any other animals? They just don't want to talk about them!!! I will tell you a real life incident of June last year that I saw myself near Delhi - UP border (Dilshad Garden) and you decide whether animals are slaves or not. I saw this bullock cart with a huge amount of bricks loaded in it and the cart driver was trying to get the cart across the red light. He was continuously and forcefully poking a wooden stick in the rear part of the bullock which forced the animal to move a foot more but it was really difficult for him. Just after going a little more...the animal was on the verge of collapsing and yet the driver kept poking him. Looking at this me along with a few people asked him to stop for a while but he wouldn't agree and asked us to do our job but just after a few seconds the bullock completely collapsed. Now was the time when the driver came in hands of common people...he got such a good thrashing that he will remember it for years to come. Now you decide whether the animal who died on that street was a slave or not? If you think this is an isolated incident then you can't be more wrong...come to northern india and you will see countless similar incidents.

4) Holocaust: The video asks about the difference between holocaust and the bar-be-cue of animals and then makes fun that in holocaust Jews were cremated! Wow!!! What fun...at least their cooked dead bodies were not eaten up...what is worse? I leave it for you to decide.

5) Chickens are stupid...so we should eat them: What a logic!!! Awesome. The video claims that Chickens are stupid so we should eat them. Does this mean that any living being with lower IQ then normal human beings needs to be eaten up...I just wonder what they will say next about Down's syndrome victims. They are stupid...its ok to eat them?

6) Don't blow my kitchen if you don't like my lunch: The video tells us that everyone has a right to eat what they want and no one should object but is that how we are going to live in this world? If this is it...then I just wish best of luck to all the cannibals in this world. They just got certificate of eating humans from these two idiots. After all...other humans are lunch for cannibals...so we vanquish all our rights of complaining?

7) The hunter does not care where the meat comes from: There is a hunter shown in the video who proudly claims that he doesn't care where the meat comes from..."its their need" and then in later part even talks about his kids' protection. Any one tried to hear a Lion's or Tiger's part about the same matter. If the Lion says that he doesn't care where the meat comes from and wants to eat a human...what will we call him? A barbarian? A monster? Why are us humans different then?

8) No Pets: Even though the video takes lots of comments out of context (it just shows!!!) but I just loved this part. The guy in the video claimed that the founder of the PETA says that no one should keep pets and then even tries to make us listen to it "Straight from the horse's mouth". Then they have put a phrase from founder's speech in support of their claim. I have noted down the part of the founder's speech word-by-word. Here is what she says

Animals are not ours to eat...not ours to wear...not ours to experiment or not ours to exploit in any which way

I wonder where she said we should not keep pets. Just proves what kind of pea brain the people behind the video are!

9) Rodney Coronado: They talked about Rodney Coronado and ALF in the video for almost 8 minutes...can you believe it? In a video of 30 minutes...they talk for 8 FRIGGING MINUTES about a single guy but they devoted less than 15 seconds for talking about cruelty to animals and swept the matter away by putting the onus on Federal Act. Can we call the video unbiased? When the core issue is missing...is the video worth giving any heed to? I leave the decision to you.

10) 1325 Animals euthanised: The video claims that PETA euthanised 1325 animals and then tells us how wrong it is!!! Wow! I am just guessing that these guys never had a pet. Anyone who has ever had even a single pet in their lives would know what kind of pain you yourself go through when you see your pet going through pain. It just becomes unbearable. How can they even compare euthansia to killing for eating or fun. This is just ridiculous.

11) Bio-medical research: Ok I agree that bio-medical research is necessary but are the companies following the laid down laws? No they are not and that is why you will never be allowed to go and give a sudden vigilant visit to a companies labs. It is just not allowed for "security reasons". Also, where does this research stop anyways? Now the scientists want to grow human parts in labs using stem cell research. The reasoning we are giving for animals today will be given for humans in a few years...will that be accepted as well? Have we become totally emotionless?

Such videos are cheap shots and people really need to think what they are doing. I am not a PETA supporter...follower or anything. Hell I was eating meat myself some years ago but this video is just making fun of our common sense.

In the end...just tell me...why are human rights more valued to us then animals? Are we actually the superior race or worse then the lowest parasites that don't care about anything but itself?

I notice you didn't say anything about PETA financing the arsonist who was responsible for destroying those bio-facilities where animal testing was taking place.

Mate, end of the day, animals are animals, humans are humans. Fix humans first before you jump to animals. So keen to protect cruelty means go to Africa and volunteer with UNICEF and WHO...

Every can be an armchair martyr...get out there and do something, then talk.

As far as the video is concerned, I'm afraid your first problem is the fact that you saw it with a preconceived agenda that you will nitpick throughout the whole thing and find all the faults you can in it instead of actually paying attention to what its trying to show you. That PETA is a piece of crap.

If you want to be an animal rights activist, by all means, go for it...but PETA itself is a bad organization. If you agree with me on this one point, then you and I both have the same basic opinion about the video...

Edit: "In the end...just tell me...why are human rights more valued to us then animals? Are we actually the superior race or worse then the lowest parasites that don't care about anything but itself?"

If I really have to explain this to you, I just wasted 3 mins of my life typing out this response.

@eddie,
Seriously eddie, I respect you for this post. This one post alone will now make me think twice whenever I think of opposing something you say. Bravo!

@faraaz
I certainly do not have as much knowledge as eddie seems to have nor did I watch that 'Bullshit' (that's an accurately titled video if ever there was one!) thing with as much concentration. But I can tell you this, I've watched both videos and you can randomly show them to me any day and the first video and its message will always make more sense to me. In fact, even in the bullshit video, the fifteen seconds or so that they have shown the animal cruelty videos of PeTA evoked much more stimulus in me than the rest of the (non-funny) video did. It is just crap.

I know that non-vegetarian eaters won't give up on it even if they parents told them to, but please do not try to justify it as being the correct thing to do. Eating animals is a heinous crime and will remain so.

faraaz said:
I notice you didn't say anything about PETA financing the arsonist who was responsible for destroying those bio-facilities where animal testing was taking place.

People say many things about lots of rebels and extremists but no one wants to look at the core issues. We are already discussing about North-East India in this very forum. Can we tag every one opposing an oppression...wrong? I did not want to tag the arsonist wrong because we do not know what was happening in that "bio-facility". Are you sure everything good was happening in there?

Mate, end of the day, animals are animals, humans are humans. Fix humans first before you jump to animals. So keen to protect cruelty means go to Africa and volunteer with UNICEF and WHO...

As far as fixing humans are concerned...I guess you are one of those people who has never volunteered in any process near your home? You don't need to go to Africa/UNICEF/WHO to make a change...you can do things right in your neighborhood. People use these huge names when they have nothing better to do. Also, while helping humans...I can also help animals...I am already doing my part by going completely veg...what are you doing?

Every can be an armchair martyr...get out there and do something, then talk.

Arm chair martyrs are actually making a difference these days. Do you realise that recent OBC quota issue was helped a long way by the bloggers? Tagging someone as arm chair martyr is the lowest thing you can do in an online debate...and sorry to say but you just reached that stage.

As far as the video is concerned, I'm afraid your first problem is the fact that you saw it with a preconceived agenda that you will nitpick throughout the whole thing and find all the faults you can in it instead of actually paying attention to what its trying to show you. That PETA is a piece of crap.

A video with its basics wrong is trying to give me a message. What should I look at? The basics or the bigger picture? I am the one who likes to look at basics...you are entitled to look at what is comfortable for you.

If you want to be an animal rights activist, by all means, go for it...but PETA itself is a bad organization. If you agree with me on this one point, then you and I both have the same basic opinion about the video...

Tagging PETA as a "bad organization" on the basis of that bullsh!t video is simply not possible for me. Sorry to disappoint you.

If I really have to explain this to you, I just wasted 3 mins of my life typing out this response.

You have shown in this thread that you hardly care about anyone but you...and any "Human Being" who has this attitude is not wasting 3 or 10 or 20 mins of his life. He/She is actually wasting the whole life.

aryayush said:
@eddie,
Seriously eddie, I respect you for this post. This one post alone will now make me think twice whenever I think of opposing something you say. Bravo!

Thanks a lot for the kind words

eddie said:
any "Human Being" who has this attitude is not wasting 3 or 10 or 20 mins of his life. He/She is actually wasting the whole life.

That is called jumping on an opportunity and making good use of words.

@faraaz,
I know that the people behind PeTA must have some sort of political or even personal gain in mind behind whatever they are doing. But that does not change the fact that the are fighting for the right cause and even if the organisation is full of corrupt people (which I do not believe it is), their pleas if heard and acted out will prevent the inhuman torture and slaughter of millions of animals all over the globe.

Unfortunately, I have no hope that it will ever happen.

faraaz said:
Mate, end of the day, animals are animals, humans are humans.

i'd say.. humans are also animals but humans are the most selfish and worst form of animals!

faraaz said:
As far as the video is concerned, I'm afraid your first problem is the fact that you saw it with a preconceived agenda that you will nitpick throughout the whole thing and find all the faults you can in it instead of actually paying attention to what its trying to show you.

even i saw the whole video and the things shown there appear to be pure bullsh!t... it is aptly titled!

faraaz said:
but PETA itself is a bad organization. If you agree with me on this one point,

i agree to this point of urs....... however, the cruelty towards animals is someting which can't be denied. they may exaggerate somethings... but what is true can't be denied!

faraaz said:
, then you and I both have the same basic opinion about the video...

but i dun agree wid this. and i haf no reason to agree to it. the video is as crap as peta and the supplements given there are really lame!

faraaz said:
Edit: "In the end...just tell me...why are human rights more valued to us then animals? Are we actually the superior race or worse then the lowest parasites that don't care about anything but itself?"

If I really have to explain this to you, I just wasted 3 mins of my life typing out this response.

there u haf it.. u correctly said, animals are animals and humans are humans!! there can be no worser and meaner species than humans!!!

@eddie
you've nicely put up all the points!

@eddie: For your information, I've been a volunteer with PRAY and YFS for the last 2 years...so yeah, I AM making a difference within my capacity. So insofar as you've put me down about that, I demand an apology.

*www.youthforseva.org/ (The website isn't much really but its more in rural areas)

As for the rest of you who are putting humans down and defending animals...let me just tell you this. Walk down to the nearest slum from your house, find a kid and tell him/her that since they are a selfish and mean species, they deserve to suffer from poverty, malnutrition and lack of health care. I'm sure they will be very understanding.

@eddie:well said...you have put a lot of efforts into that post...

Mate, end of the day, animals are animals, humans are humans. Fix humans first before you jump to animals. So keen to protect cruelty means go to Africa and volunteer with UNICEF and WHO...

well, the problem in african countries cannot be solved. they will live like that forever... + there is corrpution from head to toe...+ islamic terrorism is another reason for violence in some african countries..humans cannot be fixed...there will always be trouble makers...

and what do you mean by "animals are animals, humans are humans" ???
man is also an animal...we are more intelligent animals, thats all...

@nix: refer to my post above as to the difference between animals and humans. All this man is also an animal talk is TECHNICALITY! And intelligence is not the only distinguishing factor. Man is different from all other forms of life on earth because they have a sense of morality and a conscience, which is not true for any other animal. But then again, that is irrelevant to this thread.

faraaz said:
I demand an apology.

LOL!!! After calling me an Arm Chair martyr without knowing my real life you have the guts to ask for an apology? Get real...think and introspect before you speak something lest it comes back to you very strongly.

Walk down to the nearest slum from your house, find a kid and tell him/her that since they are a selfish and mean species, they deserve to suffer from poverty, malnutrition and lack of health care. I'm sure they will be very understanding.

We might not need to say all this to a poor kid but we can surely say that to a fat and obese rich man suffering with severe angina who has been gorging on flesh of innocent animals.

faraaz said:
Man is different from all other forms of life on earth because they have a sense of morality and a conscience

Exactly. And non-vegetarian people have a very limited amount of those virtues, if at all.

I do because you have the guts to tell me I'm wasting my life, which is more than I can say in your case.

Edit: @aryayush: You are seriously going to discount any/all contributions made to society by people who are willing to eat meat based ONLY on their culinary choices? That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

does your "sense of morality" tell you its OK to torture innocent animals? , just because they dont have the sense of morality, doesnt mean you can kill em...

I have no intention of saying anything about what you are doing with your life...I am talking about a "Human Being" with the kind of attitude you showed in this thread. If you have that attitude in real life and you ARE a "Human Being" then the statement applies to you and I don't see any reason to apologise. On the other hand if any of the two conditions does not apply to you then you don't fit in the category and I don't need to apologise again.

Refer to my first post in the thread...I don't have to justify my food habits to anyone, but when you start saying stuff about my humanity and morals and things like that...well...there's this saying about a mountain and a molehill...

faraaz said:
I saw the video...and meh...not saying I support it, but I am a thorough non-veg eater.

Frankly, there are less cruel ways of getting meat for food and if I were to find out that the meat I buy comes from a joint like this, I'd buy it some place else. Having said that...you really cant afford to be a non-vegetarian and be squeamish about stuff like this.

You don't have to justify your food habits but statements like the following don't put you in very good light either

Mate, end of the day, animals are animals, humans are humans. Fix humans first before you jump to animals.

You make it sound that both the things cannot happen side-by-side and animals need to be ignored until we fix every human problem existing in this world. As I said earlier...think before you write (or speak).

faraaz said:
You are seriously going to discount any/all contributions made to society by people who are willing to eat meat based ONLY on their culinary choices? That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

Yes, it is, which is why I do not intend to say that.

You can contribute a lot to the society without having any sense of morality or a conscience. If someone does something seriously good for the world, that person is a great man and if that same person is a non-vegetarian, he does not have any conscience. At least, he does not have any love for other living creatures. He still is a great man, but he is lacking in morality.

Hmm...well, I guess you are entitled to your opinion...but man, that is a really REALLY weird way of looking at it...

@eddie: In that case, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You give equal importance to both aspects and I give more importance to improving the lot of human life before paying attention to animals.

faraaz said:
You give equal importance to both aspects and I give more importance to improving the lot of human life before paying attention to animals.

Yes it is a common human tendency to ignore anything other than our selves.

BTW have you ever thought about the amount of resources wasted in providing calories to "rich people" in form of non-veg food? Human life can be improved by caring about animals. An example:
*news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3559542.stm

eddie said:
Yes it is a common human tendency to ignore anything other than our selves.

I'm saying reduce poverty in the world. I'm saying if you have to go on a crusade, let it be to improve health and nutrition for chidren from poor families who can't afford even one square meal a day.

That's ignoring anything other than ourselves?? Wow...how can you be so blind?

faraaz said:
I'm saying reduce poverty in the world. I'm saying if you have to go on a crusade, let it be to improve health and nutrition for chidren from poor families who can't afford even one square meal a day.

That's ignoring anything other than ourselves?? Wow...how can you be so blind?

...and eating animals does all that? Wow! Where did you get those eyes from?

Exactly. You agreed with me a few posts earlier that non-vegetarian food is costlier than its vegetarian counterpart (and, of course, everyone knows this anyway). So instead of splurging on your stomach, you'd do better to donate some of that extra money to the poor.

It is easy to mouth off on an online forum, not so much to put whatever you are saying into practice.

As for it being impossible for you (or anyone else) to survive on a vegetarian diet, that is just pure nonsense - an excuse for being lazy.

aryayush said:
As for it being impossible for you (or anyone else) to survive on a vegetarian diet, that is just pure nonsense.

i agree, i've been doing that... rather my family since generations.....

and abt fixing humans before animals.. i dun agree... compare it to ur own self. for e.g if someone has a brain tumour and also a broken limb, do u only treat the brain tumor while letting the limb on its own till the tumour's cured, just coz the brain is the 'more imp.' part that helps us think? if u do that then the person will become lame in sometime... this is the case here too. think of our body as the nature, and the different parts of our body as man, animals, birds etc. nothing can be ignored. everything is essential for proper funtioning of the body (and hence the nature). if something needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed. not a thot more or less.

why the disparity to animals? at least we are doing our bit by spending less money to satisfy my appetite and saving that money. and lemme tell u something, loud and clear that i visit the less previlaged children once quarterly, spend sometime wid them, donate stuff (including the money and believe me the money i've saved in food in some way or the other helps me in contributing here). there this place called belaku (its in basavangudi, bangalore guys mebbe knoing the area).

i ask one more question, why is it prohibited to eat animals which can defend themselves? like a wolf, bear, lion, tiger, porcupine, rhino, elephant or even the dog and boar? jus coz they can defend themselves by attacking you and can cause harm to u when u try to hunt or slaughter them???? and jus coz humble animals like cow, goat, sheep can do nothing to defend themselves other than run away u are permitted to eat it? i dun understand the logic. i'm curious to kno on what basis is eating of certain animals is prohibited while others is permitted.

eddie said:
...and eating animals does all that? Wow! Where did you get those eyes from?

Now you're just quoting out of context...where did I ever say any of these things are attributable to non-vegetarianism? I was saying if you have to devote time and energy for animal rights then you might as well invest yourself personally for human rights instead. And you just want to put words in my mouth. Suit yourself.

dear bros...where are you going to???

just want you to know that the hell human made for other animals...

its not the only video to discus...try youtube..and realise it..
:grin:

you know the hell with 'mediacal testing on animals'..

get the facts right..stop discussion on the same vodeo..

I wouldn't call PETA as terrorist organisation as we already have overcrowded jails. But borderline yes as they use mental terror tactics to scare off people. I think concern for animals from a ethics point of view helps better than calling non vegetarians mass murderers.

faraaz said:
I was saying if you have to devote time and energy for animal rights then you might as well invest yourself personally for human rights instead.

"If you have to devote time and energy for the afforestation of trees then you might as well invest yourself personally for decreasing fuel consumption instead."

What sense does this make! Can't fuel consumption be reduced while trying to increase forestation? Similarly, can't we try to do some animal welfare while simultaneously trying to improve human life?

You are just trying to excuse yourself out of the position you have cornered yourself into and feel comfortable with. You eat non-vegetarian and you slaughter goats and you love doing both of them because even if you didn't like one of them, you would automatically be repulsed by the other sin.

I don't follow your logic...

Of course you don't.

why care for some f**** organisation.

Just be on ur own and take it on ur face. Thats something which turned me vegetarian. Someday we all realise wat we hav done........scavenging everything.

but sadly for some...its part of their culture....

Think different.

nix said:
but sadly for some...its part of their culture....

Do you think people from any culture will mind if you don't eat meat?

S

No, and people from most cultures won't mind eating meat either.

how culture relates to meet eating or mercy ...????

K

I am against this holie-than-thou attitude that most vegetarians have.
even plants have life, each time u eat a potato u deprive the seeds it might produce of life.
We talk about saving the tigers; are they not killers? do they not kill other animals for food?
We are not autotrophs; we cannot make food from water and CO2.
Remember that this film is based for animal farms in the US of A. In third world countries like india and africa animals are not blindly slaughtered, and those that are done are done in the most hygenic conditions possible, and none is wasted.
This is mainly because the average animal farmer in these countries cannot afford the costs of raising the animals if they are not sold.

karmanya said:
We talk about saving the tigers; are they not killers? do they not kill other animals for food?

Watch the videos to know the answer

Anyways I will quote it for you here

Put a two year old in a crib with an apple and a bunny rabbit. Now see which one he plays with and which one he eats.

Do the same to a tiger's cub and you will get your answer.

K

i dont think any mother would put thier baby in a crib with a rabbit and an apple.
and u havent answered/responded to the rest of my questions

If by the rest of the questions you mean holier-than-thou attitude...eating potatoes and animals not being blindly slaughtered in India...then I really don't think I need to answer. Not because I can't but because I don't want to

K

quote eddie "Not because I can't but because I don't want to "
i highly doubt that.

karmanya said:
i highly doubt that.

Everyone is free to have their thoughts...

karmanya said:
We talk about saving the tigers; are they not killers? do they not kill other animals for food?

I knew that at least one person would definitely suggest this idiot logic. eddie's response is already fabulous and has left you with no reply. I just want to add to it that if you can catch a deer and rip it apart and eat it raw, feel free to do so. No one will stop you.

Tigers are living like they were intended to. They are a part of Nature's well-executed food chain. They are not trying to eat elephants or fishes because they are not supposed to. Man is not supposed to eat animals. And more importantly, keep them in captivity, execute them mercilessly and them eat them. This is a sin.

I'm a vegan, and cannot tolerate any cruelty towards animals. I also agree with what eddie has said in this thread. Finding any excuse to defend meat-eating practice is lame at best, and sad at times.

I was not born a vegan. Everyone in my family, including my parents, liked meat. I was the first to break free of this tradition, after a period of enlightenment (no, not religious) - when I discovered love for nature, animals and innocence in my late teens. Rest of my family members followed suit, and they're lacto-vegetarians now.

You can change too. Look at the animals going to be slaughtered for a mere taste on your tongue. Respect their right to live and prosper. Think about their sufferings and slavery for being what they are.

K

i resent the fact that you find my train of thought "idiot logic" and technically it should be "idiotic". secondly how do you presume to know how human's were intended to live? for all you know humans might have been intended to live while waddling in the mud.
I am curious when was the last time you ate an elephant? I have to the best of my knowledge never eaten elephant and do not expect to. Plus what you consider "sin" is the only way thousands of people have survived over the ages. Early man ate meat on a larger scale before he learn't how to farm.
plus what you consider 'sin' is a relatively newer concept. For ages in europe religious people ate meat, the church did not condemn it. even the Koran does not condemn it. also as i responded to eddies comment: ure mother must have been a very strange one to leave you alone in a crib with a rabbit and an apple. I am also curious as to why no-one is responding to the second half of my post.
in a way yamraj: you remind me of Sheila Dikshit when she banned travelling performers from keeping monkeys. Despite what people think, not all animals are mistreated, or cruelly slaughtered to feed us.
also don't plants have a right to live and prosper? or is that right only reserved for "suffering" animals.
if you did not notice the last line was sarcasm

^ It's not a question of "sin", or whether it was the standard practice in dark ages. It's about morality and humanity. Since we're quite adept at growing delicious food ourselves, it doesn't make any sense that poor innocent animals suffer at our hands anymore. Besides, I don't give a @#$% about what religous books have to say on this issue. Organized religions are good for nothing but spreading stupidity, violence and arrogance.

As for your example, I'm with Dick-$hit on this issue. Humans are nothing special, and have no special "divine" rights to keeps animals enslaved. Not morally, not ethically - and if I had my way - not legally.

K

I do not talk of the dark ages. Let me bring something into focus: in order to grow "delicious food" most farmers kill hundreds of insects which may have damaged the crop. doesnt this count as slaughter? I have never preached organized religion and agree that Humans do not have a special "divine" right to enslave animals I was merely pointing flaws in eddies comment of killing animals to be a sin.
Humans and all animals have a natural right to kill other animals to sustain themselves. I also am against the blind slaughter of animals but i condone the killing of enough animals for self sustainance. also in the video that spawned off this thread, they said that the grain used to feed cows could be used to feed starving millions but since when have humans been able to eat grass. sure its an excellent source of protein but we cannot digest it.

1. There is a difference between killing insects, poisoning rats, slaughtering cows/chicken and beheading humans. These acts are not the same, and one shouldn't be used to justify or condone another.

2. Yes, I would kill a snake or a scorpion in order to survive, but that's also different from torturing and slaughtering animals for taste and pleasure, on mass level. Need I even mention cruel and unnecessary Spanish bullfighting, cock fighting, removal of snake teeth by charmers, treatment of bears in street shows and the zoo/circus factor?

3. Plants don't have the extensive and sensitive nervous systems as in animals. They don't have a conscience, or knowledge of "self". They don't feel pain - at least not to the same level as animals do. It's again a lame excuse coming up with the "plants are living beings too" statement.

Humans are sadistic animals, and they shouldn't complain of their sufferings until they've stopped making others suffer.

karmanya said:
also as i responded to eddies comment: ure mother must have been a very strange one to leave you alone in a crib with a rabbit and an apple

Leave people's mothers or other family members out of the discussion or you will regret it.

secondly how do you presume to know how human's were intended to live? for all you know humans might have been intended to live while waddling in the mud.

I am guessing that you were not a science student in school? Time for you to read about Oral Cavity, Dental structures involving not much evolved canines and strong molars, relatively small stomach while long small & large intestine, controlled Hydrochloric acid secretion in stomach, much more pronounced starch digestion with release of peptides and peptones in feces.

they said that the grain used to feed cows could be used to feed starving millions but since when have humans been able to eat grass. sure its an excellent source of protein but we cannot digest it.

Grains are used to feed animals like Chickens and those grains can be used in a much better way by eating in that form only..."Grains". Also, grass is an excellent source of carbohydrates...not protein

@karmanya: Give it up while you can...I did after I realised there's not sense in trying to reason with these veggies...

peta defn

poorly educated teen activists

Vyasram said:
peta defn

poorly educated teen activists

Ah the irony of it!

K

eddie, i am not trying to have a go at your mother or anyone's mother, i was just trying to say that it was a stupid point to make. if i handled it badly im sorry. and also in the video at the point where they said grain that is used to feed them...here they showed a cow....can be used to feed them...here i think they showed poor people in shacks.
also grass is an excellent source of protein even though it is low quality protein. people say carbohydrates because of the cellulose.
and if humans were not intended to eat meat, then how come the body cannot digest cellulose but can digest meat?
@faraaz have confidence, if we band togethor and present our points with conviction we can yet beat them.

Not really...whatever you say...they're retort is gonna be "OMG!! You cruel B@$t@rd!! How can you kill the cute lil fuzzy wuzzy animals??" If someone is willing to debate reasonably, then you could have a rational exchange of ideas. But thats not happening on this thread.

K

i wouldnt neccessarily agree with you, this Yamraj person is putting quite rational points forward.
and yamraj what you said about slaughtering insects, why the hypocrisy? slaughter is slaughter whether it is human, animal or insect.
if u condemn one you indirectly condemn the other
i AM AGAINST BLIND SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS, but i am not against eating meat to survive.

^ As I've said before - killing for survival is different from killing for pleasure. If a person turtures, mutilates and slaughters insects, or lesser animals like rodents - he is no better than a murderer of human beings, for he takes joy in these sadistic acts. Remember that killing people in wars fetch you medals, but you're sent to prison for the same in times of peace. Social definitions of crime and normalcy are variable, and people change them to suit their need or greed.

I'm the kind of person who would choose to starve than kill and eat a chicken wandering nearby, for I believe that my life is no more important than the life of another living being.

if humans were not intended to eat meat, then how come the body cannot digest cellulose but can digest meat?

We are not intended to digest cellulose because the alimentary canal is fit to digest starch and other complex carbohydrates of Plant products and absorb the by-products. This can be seen by the presence of enzymes like Amylase/Ptyalin right from our saliva. On the other hand, digesting meat of protein is a highly unproductive action for humans because of a small stomach and controlled secretion of Hydrochloric acid & Pepsinogen in the stomach. This kind of setup is more appropriate to digest simpler Proteins stored in Cotyledons of various Plants. The same can be established by measuring the amount of Peptides and Peptones excreted in our feces after a Plant or Meat diet.

H

Yamaraj said:
I'm a vegan, and cannot tolerate any cruelty towards animals. I also agree with what eddie has said in this thread. Finding any excuse to defend meat-eating practice is lame at best, and sad at times.

I was not born a vegan. Everyone in my family, including my parents, liked meat. I was the first to break free of this tradition, after a period of enlightenment (no, not religious) - when I discovered love for nature, animals and innocence in my late teens. Rest of my family members followed suit, and they're lacto-vegetarians now.

You can change too. Look at the animals going to be slaughtered for a mere taste on your tongue. Respect their right to live and prosper. Think about their sufferings and slavery for being what they are.

Exactly the same here. My entire family loves meat, even I used to eat meat till I was 3 years old. But then I realized what I was actually doing, and have become a vegetarian after that.

I think killing animals for food, is no less worse than killing human beings.

K

Yamaraj said:
^ As I've said before - killing for survival is different from killing for pleasure. If a person turtures, mutilates and slaughters insects, or lesser animals like rodents - he is no better than a murderer of human beings, for he takes joy in these sadistic acts. Remember that killing people in wars fetch you medals, but you're sent to prison for the same in times of peace. Social definitions of crime and normalcy are variable, and people change them to suit their need or greed.

I'm the kind of person who would choose to starve than kill and eat a chicken wandering nearby, for I believe that my life is no more important than the life of another living being.

do u honestly think that the average indian farmer takes sadistic pleasure in killing chickens to sell? don't be so deluded. also if you believe that your life is no more important than the life of another living being, then why do u swat and kill mosquitoes, ants and cockroaches that may enter your home? cuz at this point you are saying " I am against the slaughtering of animals, but only when it is convenient".
why the hypocrisy?

Good debate...keep it going guys!

hitman050 said:
My entire family loves meat, even I used to eat meat till I was 3 years old. But then I realized what I was actually doing, and have become a vegetarian after that.

At the age of three, you were able to distinguish between what is wrong and what is right? You left non-vegetarianism at the mere age of three!? WOW!

karmanya said:
do u honestly think that the average indian farmer takes sadistic pleasure in killing chickens to sell? don't be so deluded. also if you believe that your life is no more important than the life of another living being, then why do u swat and kill mosquitoes, ants and cockroaches that may enter your home? cuz at this point you are saying " I am against the slaughtering of animals, but only when it is convenient".
why the hypocrisy?

You didn't get my post. Let's rehash it pointwise: -

1. A farmer doesn't take sadistic pleasure in killing insects, because his own survival depends on the crop. But, if someone picks up an insect and performs vivisection or makes it suffer without any valid reason - he's being cruel to the being. Plain and simple.

2. Killing mosquitos is again different from slaughtering cows, for the mosquito is hell bent on sucking my blood and making me suffer due to the diseases it spreads.

To summerize: I'm against killing a living being only for pleasure - be it for cruel sports or for eating its flesh. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't kill a maneater lion which is coming to get you. But hunting is cruel, and inhuman.

K

in the same way, the average indian animal farmer, does not take sadistic pleasure in killing chickens or pigs or cows or whatever, because his survival depends on the meat that he sells or eats.
plus animals which are killed for meat are not made to suffer- in fact care is taken to kill them as quickly as possible, i have a few relatives in the field and i have never seen them kill a chicken or cow by throwing a cinder block on its head, as was shown in the video. please keep in mind i keep on stressing this: this is INDIA, people cannot afford to slaughter animals.

karmanya said:
in the same way, the average indian animal farmer, does not take sadistic pleasure in killing chickens or pigs or cows or whatever, because his survival depends on the meat that he sells or eats.

This is what I meant to say. It's upto the consumers to cut down on the demand, and the supply with take a rest automagically.

karmanya said:
plus animals which are killed for meat are not made to suffer- in fact care is taken to kill them as quickly as possible, i have a few relatives in the field and i have never seen them kill a chicken or cow by throwing a cinder block on its head, as was shown in the video.

But, I've noticed the harsh conditions the animals are kept in - be it chicken or goats or fish. The least they can do is to provide better and stress-free environment for the animals. They slaughter the animals right before the eyes of the living ones in queue. Can you imagine their pain, horror and psychological trauma?

And then there are some, who like to fry and eat living "food" - like lobsters. Koreans, Chinese and Japanese are the worst in this regard. They prepare the animals (preparation being "discarding of the unwanted parts of their bodies"), but take enough as not to kill them in due process. Then they're fried and served semi-alive. Is this acceptable to you?

karmanya said:
please keep in mind i keep on stressing this: this is INDIA, people cannot afford to slaughter animals.

This isn't only about India. And there are sadists everywhere.

K

um psychological trauma- these are animals, yes they need to be treated with respect and yes they need to be given more sanitary conditions. but don't condemn eating meat because some aspects are unsavory.(lol coudn't resist that) but you have to realise animals aren't like us- they don't think. they can recognize some basic things- friend, family, foe, hunger, cold etc etc.

W

That veal calf may end up as wiener schnitzel, but one of our greatest chefs wants it to have a happy life first.

By Wolfgang Puck
Newsweek

May 7, 2007 issue - I've been thinking a lot lately about how it's up to chefs like me to help everyone stay healthy. It's not just about reducing obesity and diabetes, though that's obviously a priority. It's about getting every one of us to eat the right foods. That means buying produce from responsible farmers who grow fruits and vegetables that aren't covered with pesticides or genetically modified. It means getting meat from ranchers who not only shun the use of antibiotics and growth hormones, but also raise their animals humanely in a free-roaming environment.

I'm not going soft, or, heaven forbid, vegan. I'm just trying to be more accountable to myself, my customers and to those who are farming responsibly. And if it means being nicer to animals along the way, well, that's a big bonus. Why shouldn't cows and pigs feel sunlight on their backs, grass under their feet? Fish shouldn't be jammed into tanks too full for them to even think about swimming. They should be able to exercise their muscles and feel a current. Yes, they'll be killed for food—but until then, they should have a nice stay on Earth.

You might say this is ridiculous. Why does it matter how an animal is reared, since you know from the start that it's going to be slaughtered? But I have had a change of heart. I want to be more outspoken about the treatment of animals. I care that a veal calf—yes, even one that's destined to become wiener schnitzel at one of my Spago restaurants—doesn't live out his days in a crate that's too small for him to stand. As for foie gras, my customers and I can easily live without it.

Why did I adopt this new culinary philosophy? I'd been thinking about it for some time when the Humane Society of the United States, a Washington, D.C.-based animal-welfare organization, approached me last year about changing my menu to use ingredients exclusively from humane farmers. And I thought the time was right to make the switch, to lead by example. You might say I've been living this way all my life, from the time I was a young boy in Unterbergen, Austria. We never stocked cans in our pantry. Instead, we ate summer fruit in the summer and winter vegetables when the weather turned cold, just as nature intended. Our chickens were raised to run about the property, and were fed a wholesome diet. Our cows didn't know a thing about bovine growth hormones. And the food tasted better.

This year, Spago turns 25. I am proud of how my 90-seat restaurant in L.A. evolved into a vast food company serving more than 10 million customers each year. But it's not the past quarter-century that's on my mind. It's how I will manage my company for the next 25 years that's consuming me. So here's what I promise to do for a second act. In all of my restaurants, catering businesses, licensed foods and takeout establishments, I'm committed to using organic ingredients and humanely raised meats and fish. By the end of the year, all of the chicken I buy, even for my Wolfgang Puck frozen pizzas, will have been raised cage-free. The veal on my Spago menu is now free-range. To make certain things stay above-board, I've hired someone who will police my purveyors. I want to ensure that everything labeled organic really is, and that no veal calf that finds its way into my kitchen lived its life chained inside a box.

And it won't stop with the food. Our society is too reliant on disposable packaging that sits for eternity in a landfill. I drive through the streets of Beverly Hills and can't help but notice that this city has the largest garbage cans I've ever seen. It's not that bad people live in Beverly Hills, it's just that the more affluent a society we are, the more we tend to throw away. By the end of the year, I'll replace all of my plastic to-go bags with recycled paper, and I'll use more environmentally friendly containers.

I'm hoping other chefs will follow suit. If I can get my foods from responsible ranchers and farmers and feed millions of people each year—and not raise prices—then chefs who cook for smaller audiences can do this, too. And one by one, we'll all benefit. The way I see it, our future will be filled with more chefs and fewer doctors.
© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
*www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18367502/site/newsweek/

karmanya said:
um psychological trauma- these are animals, yes they need to be treated with respect and yes they need to be given more sanitary conditions. but don't condemn eating meat because some aspects are unsavory.(lol coudn't resist that) but you have to realise animals aren't like us- they don't think. they can recognize some basic things- friend, family, foe, hunger, cold etc etc.

You're denying a lot of things. Animals do think, and many of them even make use of tools. And then there are humans, deprived of such abilities. Is it perfectly alright to slaughter and eat them as well? How about a roasted 2 years old, for he cannot think and only recognizes family, friends, foe, hunger, cold et cetera? Or how about frying and serving alive a mentally disabled, who's not brighter than a monkey?

Your logic is flawed at best, for it's based on assumptions and not facts.

K

a 2 year old is human-animals are not. if u cannot condone a human eating meat then why condone tigers eating meat.? i know this is a stupid point but im on my last legs here

karmanya said:
a 2 year old is human-animals are not. if u cannot condone a human eating meat then why condone tigers eating meat.? i know this is a stupid point but im on my last legs here

Why the discrimination - this feeling of humans being superior to animals? It's not like animals don't have a family, or don't feel pain. Even if we really are superior to them, why can't we be protective of the less intellectually developed? Is superiority all about making others suffer?

Tigers haven't got much choice. Believe me, if they could grow crops and survive on rice and wheat, they would. Besides, carnivores of the jungle have yet to establish industrialized slaughterhouses to match the cruelty and materialism of humans. A tiger hunting its prey in the wild is still better than humans growing little chicken in farms only to be slaughtered at the sacrificial altar of taste and pleasure.

I went to an Apple Premium Reseller to buy a good sleeve for my MacBook Pro. There was one from Case Mate that wasn't very expensive and I quite liked the feel of it. Then I looked at the list of features and one there was one prominently displayed feature, "Made of genuine calf skin".

I know this must be a selling point for a lot of customers, but I felt disgusted to even be holding that thing in my hands. They surely lost one customer that day. I wish more people did the same.

This video reminds of the way the Stroggs were treating humans in Quake4. In France real fruit juices with pulp cost much less than milk. There its cheap to be vegetarian. In India, we are reliant on bournivita, coffe, tea, milk shake etc. Not to forget the cakes and ice creams. But vegetarian food will always be healthier. True veg food keeps humans active. There are other problems too like pollution and petrol ( misuse ). We need to take walks when possible and use public transportation instead of SUVs whenever possible. Everything is interlinked and is never going to be followed by everyone due to laziness and the ego of not accepting the mistakes they have been commiting. But if atleast half of us protect environment and do the right thing , we can atleast prolong the doom's day of self destruction. We need not become 100% Mr Right , just do whatever possible, giving up our laziness bit by bit over a period of time. The incentive is health and wealth (if done right).

Oh yeah, the bull$hit video was bull$hit because it was trying to prove the messenger bad not the message wrong. We should view the PETA video for the message and not the messenger.

Worst thing to do is follow the non-sense told by religion. Everyone has a conscience made by nature. Try following it. Nature has made humans with various mentalities - good and bad, fearless and coward, loyal and cunning, intelligent and idiot. All this for survival of human race. Some of the religious outfits which condemn independant thoughts have been perversing the conscience. So dont hate a non-vegan just because you are vegetarian.

K

@arya i agree with you. I am against using actual leather in any products. but i do not think that eating them is a crime.
and yamraj - though being superior is not all about making others suffer, but there will always be discrimination- why do people usually not allow cows, pigs or chickens to live with them? always remember the food chain.
and "the sacrificial alter of taste and pleasure"? isnt that a little too melodramatic?

@karmanya: It's all about the cute lil fuzzy wuzzy animals remember?

faraaz said:
@karmanya: It's all about the cute lil fuzzy wuzzy animals remember?

No, it's about conscience. And yours is suffocating under the load of your tongue.

karmanya said:
and "the sacrificial alter of taste and pleasure"? isnt that a little too melodramatic?

Indeed, but quite the truth.

Spare me your soapbox dramatics Yamaraj. You really need to stick to discussing the issue at hand rather than resort to making personal attacks.

faraaz said:
Spare me your soapbox dramatics Yamaraj. You really need to stick to discussing the issue at hand rather than resort to making personal attacks.

Practice what you preach, and I'll see to it next time.

Slaughter of goats shud be abolished tooo! I dunno how can a religion even support such thing!

mediator said:
Slaughter of goats shud be abolished tooo! I dunno how can a religion even support such thing!

yeah how does a religion supports killin of animals.

What does ur instinct says in what context I'm saying?

Lets just abolish killing all animals...you know what? Lets start handing out jail terms for all who dare eat anything other than vegetarian food.

its the right of an individual to choose to be vegan or non-veg.It cant be forced that U needs to be a Veg in India and shud not be taken into in a religious context.Let ur choice rules U!not to all others

^ Absolutely correct, killing animals or sacrificing as some say on religious grounds shud be abolished. Its not called faith, but irrational and absurd blind belief thats bad for natural equilibrium and animal itself. Its a known fact that a person who grows up seeing violence and such killings tends to be violent!! In other words he gets used to it so much that he doesn't see it as cruelty!!

@praka123: Fully agree with you!

mediator said:
Its a known fact that a person who grows up seeing violence and such killings tends to be violent!! In other words he gets used to it so much that he doesn't see it as cruelty!!

rightly said. if this is abolished then a lot other problems will get solved!

S

Originally Posted by mediator
Its a known fact that a person who grows up seeing violence and such killings tends to be violent!! In other words he gets used to it so much that he doesn't see it as cruelty!!

rightly said. if this is abolished then a lot other problems will get solved!
-------

hahahaaa! you kids need to grow up.

$

wateva chicken tastes good to me. We cant go b*tchin abt everything

Wat bout personal choices.I am very much against cruelty but then u cant say the whole non veg thing is wrong.Atleast tats wat our ancestors did.Before civilizations came into existense it was a dog eat dog world out there.They had to do it to surviveAnd being a non veg.Its their choice and even if its a bad choice one shud learn to accept it.There's so much cruelty against animals even without the meat industry being involved.Hectares of rain forest r lost for paper we r losin species we hav never even discovered.I am not sayin its right but showin the other side in equal light.

And i am a veg