IITs have lost old sheen, says Narayana Murthy

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AHMEDABAD: Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) are no longer the quality institutions they were in the 60s and 70s, said chief mentor of Infosys N R Narayana Murthy while speaking at IIT-Gandhinagar.

Murthy encouraged students to become strategic learners and restore the lost glory of the IITs.

Murthy said very few world-class researches came out of IITs and IIMs in the last decade. "In 2004, China produced 2,652 PhDs in computer science and in that year the figure was 24 in our country," he said.

"This is truly worrisome. Focus on researches has diminished in the IITs and they have become just a teaching institution and we all know that it is not the way to go about it," he added.

"In the last 15 to 20 years, IITs have lost all the sheen that they had once upon a time. In 1967, at the electrical engineering department of IIT-Kanpur there were about 60 to 70 students registered for PhD. But today, at the same department if there are five PhD students joining in a year, that would be fantastic," said Murthy.

He said that even gold medalists from IITs were at a loss when they pursue researches in institutes like MIT and Harvard.

"The primary difference that I have found between the system of education in India and other countries, particularly the US, is that they focus on problem solving and relating theories to reality around them. These two things are lacking in the education system in India," Murthy said.

According to Murthy, the decline of the quality of IITs is also the result of coaching classes for joint entrance examinations.

"Today, students prepare hard for a year solving sample questions for IIT-JEE. One of these samples matches in the entrance examination and they crack the test," he said.

Inspiring the students to become a strategic learner, Murthy told them to inculcate the qualities of independent thinking, connecting what is learnt in the classrooms with what is happening in the outside world and finding appropriate solutions to problems around.

*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/education/IITs-have-lost-old-sheen-says-Narayana-Murthy/articleshow/9289947.cms

I think yes ....

because of the robotic coaching centres

no one really cares.

ico said:
no one really cares.

don't get upset yaar. It was bound to happen.

^^ you didn't get the point.

Just saying, India has lagged behind as far as R&D is concerned. We don't have that type of environment. Most people just care about getting into a decent college and then "placements."

My ambition of life is to get to IIT...yep IIT !

IIT meri jaan hai. IIT ya phir MAUT !!

I am in class III, and i want to gets into IIT. am already studying 4 class XI. CAN IS HAS AN IIT? Plz help.

^^i couldn't crack IIT this year :'( , and i won't repeat nxt year. [didn't study even a bit these last 2yrs seriously] i joined a private college this month for B.Tech in CSE, and will study *sincerely* and will prepare to get M.Tech from IIT, then P.hd!

He has a valid point IMO .

A

He is absolutely right!!
Students just wants to get into IITs and cares for placements.
In India, best students go into companies, while in foreign countries best students go for research.
No one thinks for research in India, everyone wants to get a good package and all that.
If this mindset of peoples will not change then IITs reputation at global level will decrease further.

G

sammy_cool said:
^^i couldn't crack IIT this year :'( , and i won't repeat nxt year. [didn't study even a bit these last 2yrs seriously] i joined a private college this month for B.Tech in CSE, and will study *sincerely* and will prepare to get M.Tech from IIT, then P.hd!

all the best...make sure you do the right course

Well, this isnt unexpected but still its the best in the country aint it?
Have a look at this- *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/random-ne...udent-gets-rs-70-lakh-job-offer-facebook.html

A

AFAIK "the best" students as perceived by our exam system are, to be honest, far from it

If they were really "the best", we'd see them doing much more than just running some business.....

In India, "the best" is simply a function of "concentrated effort" and "luck", not talent. No wonder the sheen is going, marks in entrance exams are simply not an indicator for admission to any course.

Murthy wanted to start NIIT with a catchphrase "Think beyond the IIT!" but sadly NIIT is taken by another "educational institution". So till the time he can find some fancy shortforms, that plan is in the pipeline. But since he is saying all this, looks like he found one.

P.S.: Dont tell this to Aridhram Choudary.

A

AFAIK Murthy is also a businessman in the end. In my long experience, I've really learnt that academic comments from a businessman have to be taken with a nice amount of salt, since the comments are generally targeted in terms of business and money gain rather than pure academic interest.

That being said, I think IITs are still the same as always - what I debate is whether the "sheen" is due to external perception or raw student talent, because the fact is that far more talented students do exist outside the IITs. I don't even need to mention how the students are selected - difficult or not, the entrance exams do fail almost completely at analysing a student's talent, ability or interest.

In the end, the current situation occurs simply because everyone is running after the money. It is understandable and unlikely to change. As such, India does do well as a business-oriented nation - as long as the wheels are running, why mess with it?

AcceleratorX said:
AFAIK Murthy is also a businessman in the end. In my long experience, I've really learnt that academic comments from a businessman have to be taken with a nice amount of salt, since the comments are generally targeted in terms of business and money gain rather than pure academic interest.

In the end, the current situation occurs simply because everyone is running after the money. It is understandable and unlikely to change. As such, India does do well as a business-oriented nation - as long as the wheels are running, why mess with it?

Business and its job creation and financial stability is the 99% Good education colleges exists. Remaining 1 Percent goes on to become newtons and einsteins.
Try opening a college and will understand what placement plays role. IIT no doubt finds the highest placements.Hence the concerns of Narayanan Murthy are justified.

A

freshseasons said:
Try opening a college and will understand what placement plays role. IIT no doubt finds the highest placements.Hence the concerns of Narayanan Murthy are justified.

The comments may be justified, but the agenda probably isn't, is what I'm saying.

freshseasons said:
Try opening a college and will understand what placement plays role.

I do understand, however I also understand that this is much more predominant in developing nations like India. I can understand all of this from a business and financial point of view, but as a scientist, it is neither justifiable nor acceptable to me.

(Not saying I'm a scientist - but it's two ways of looking at the same thing.)

The fact is that it is true that the quality of education has dropped, but all of this was inevitable. However, that does not necessarily mean the candidates are any less intelligent. For the purposes of the Indian IT industry in particular, almost any graduate will do just fine.

Research, unless done by private companies, has very little to do with the industry, which is why Infosys has little reason to stick it's nose into talking about research (which makes Mr. Murthy's comments all that more interesting

).

The bottom line is: I'm skeptical of his intentions, even though in theory I agree with his comments. I tend to be pessimistic about these things, and often I have found that people speaking these things have little idea what they actually mean. Call me disillusioned.

Doesn't mean I disrespect the man though.

Jawahar Lal Nehru had set up the initial IITs with the thought that the students will help the progress of India and not go after thick packages.

if you have time get the number that what number of students are in india , after passing out of an IIT?

what i see is that after passing out, almost all passed out got to other countries

some however returns to india as a business man

P.S.: Dont tell this to Aridhram Choudary.

Dare to dream beyond the IITs

LOL what a joke

nims11 said:
Jawahar Lal Nehru had set up the initial IITs with the thought that the students will help the progress of India and not go after thick packages.

Unfortunately , it is the thick packages which makes most students toil hard ,so that they get a good placement , in return for all their hard work. Helping progress of India doesn;t inspire much when you have to study 12-16 hours duiring the exams

comp@ddict said:
Dare to dream beyond the IITs

LOL what a joke

Seconded.
That is his business well supported by some stupid guys/gals.

And his seductive sis ofc.

mitraark said:
Unfortunately , it is the thick packages which makes most students toil hard ,so that they get a good placement , in return for all their hard work. Helping progress of India doesn;t inspire much when you have to study 12-16 hours duiring the exams

And 4 years of studying dross.

The country can go to hell for I am concerned...

Its so depressing.

Wait aren't we taken over by Apes and Clowns for ages?

IIT never had any sheen. As the name implies, it makes engineers, not scientists. But everyone wants a mechanical engineer, or an electrical engineer. Nobody wants a Physicist.

IIT is for number-crunching machines Or traditional engineers. For Information Technology, don't go there, unless Mathematics is your primary field of choice.
BITS is a much better place. MIT assistance also helps its reputation.

IIRC, IISc also exists. Dunno about its reputation though.

A

Not been to BITS, but IMO the best place to study CS/IT in India is IIIT and not IIT/NIT. Their course has (IMO) the most industrially relevant and practically oriented contents in our education system.

IISc has a very good reputation.....for science. It's not a place for churning out employees of MNCs - people there are researchers first in and first out.

For anyone reading - it's not the place to go if you're thinking about packages, it's about quality.

AcceleratorX said:
IISc has a very good reputation.....for science. It's not a place for churning out employees of MNCs - people there are researchers first in and first out.

For anyone reading - it's not the place to go if you're thinking about packages, it's about quality.

which is the sore point in indian higher education. Research is never given any consideration.

Outside india in the developed nations researchers are generally paid more.

R

AcceleratorX said:
Not been to BITS, but IMO the best place to study CS/IT in India is IIIT and not IIT/NIT. Their course has (IMO) the most industrially relevant and practically oriented contents in our education system.

IISc has a very good reputation.....for science. It's not a place for churning out employees of MNCs - people there are researchers first in and first out.

For anyone reading - it's not the place to go if you're thinking about packages, it's about quality.

Thanks for the info.

It is really sad that research is not encouraged in India, even more saddening is that students are themselves not interested, my own IIT'ian friends are concerned about their pay packages than anything, plus most them go for MBA after engg. ( Pointless ). Regarding quality of students coming to IIT it is a really bad situation, coaching centers churn out students tailor-made for IIT-JEE and sincere deserving candidates get left out! :sad:

ico said:
no one really cares.

abhijangda said:
He is absolutely right!!
Students just wants to get into IITs and cares for placements.
In India, best students go into companies, while in foreign countries best students go for research.
No one thinks for research in India, everyone wants to get a good package and all that.
If this mindset of peoples will not change then IITs reputation at global level will decrease further.

AcceleratorX said:
AFAIK "the best" students as perceived by our exam system are, to be honest, far from it

If they were really "the best", we'd see them doing much more than just running some business.....

In India, "the best" is simply a function of "concentrated effort" and "luck", not talent. No wonder the sheen is going, marks in entrance exams are simply not an indicator for admission to any course.

You all are right.India is really a good country filled with majority worst mentality people.I will make almost all of them slaves thats the place they belongs to.

Why is this thread still up?

Not everyone would want to do charity. Its not about how hard they work or how poor you are. It's just a moral or rather personal choice.

I don't like pointing fingers especially when I see most people around 20 complaining IIT(ians) do not do enough for the country. I am 22 now and not getting into IIT doesn't mean I have lost all my capabilities to help another soul. You guys need a self analysis asap (and that includes me too)

"Today, students prepare hard for a year solving sample questions for IIT-JEE. One of these samples matches in the entrance examination and they crack the test," he said.

Period

RahulB said:
Thanks for the info.

It is really sad that research is not encouraged in India, even more saddening is that students are themselves not interested, my own IIT'ian friends are concerned about their pay packages than anything, plus most them go for MBA after engg. ( Pointless ). Regarding quality of students coming to IIT it is a really bad situation, coaching centers churn out students tailor-made for IIT-JEE and sincere deserving candidates get left out!

The real culprit is our nation's culture and belief system. There is no open-mindedness or mutual trust among students( atleast compared to the west ). Generally in any college, when a student tries to do something academically different or better than the others, he/she is usually seen as a competitor to others. Infact he/she may be doing it out of passion or self-driven interest or out of curiosity and such... But none of these are given any consideration. The others will see him/her as a threat and trying to outshine others and will bully him/her and make cheap stupid comments about him/her and make use of every opportunity they get to pull him/her down to their level.

Even with teachers...during my M.C.A. II year, I was sitting in the class listening to a seminar on 'Operating Systems' by a student. The teacher was sitting near me, she looked at the 'Operating Systems' book written by 'Gary Nutt', Which I had with me. While our prescribed text book for 'Operating Systems' is the one written by 'William Stallings'. She Immediately told me "If you write from this book, you won't be awarded any marks!!!"....Where can I go?....Personally I have 0.0% faith in our education system...no more...

As far as IITs are concerned, as others have already pointed out, getting into IITs is more about social-status and PAY. Research is not even in anyone's discussion context. I would rate each individual more on the basis of their attitude, belief and value systems than by their resume or achievements...

The typical mentality is...

STUDY FOR MARKS...
WORK FOR MONEY...

R

prasath_digit said:
The real culprit is our nation's culture and belief system. There is no open-mindedness or mutual trust among students( atleast compared to the west ). Generally in any college, when a student tries to do something academically different or better than the others, he/she is usually seen as a competitor to others. Infact he/she may be doing it out of passion or self-driven interest or out of curiosity and such... But none of these are given any consideration. The others will see him/her as a threat and trying to outshine others and will bully him/her and make cheap stupid comments about him/her and make use of every opportunity they get to pull him/her down to their level.

Even with teachers...during my M.C.A. II year, I was sitting in the class listening to a seminar on 'Operating Systems' by a student. The teacher was sitting near me, she looked at the 'Operating Systems' book written by 'Gary Nutt', Which I had with me. While our prescribed text book for 'Operating Systems' is the one written by 'William Stallings'. She Immediately told me "If you write from this book, you won't be awarded any marks!!!"....Where can I go?....Personally I have 0.0% faith in our education system...no more...

As far as IITs are concerned, as others have already pointed out, getting into IITs is more about social-status and PAY. Research is not even in anyone's discussion context. I would rate each individual more on the basis of their attitude, belief and value systems than by their resume or achievements...

The typical mentality is...

STUDY FOR MARKS...
WORK FOR MONEY...

Great Post Bro.. I feel for you..

IIT never had any sheen to begin with. I attended a day of Techfest, and to be perfectly frank, had this been a developed nation, every freakin' engineering college would be exactly like IIT Bombay, if not better.

All IIT enjoys is a fat pay package and a remarkably high social status. Both are totally unjustified.

thewisecrab said:
All IIT enjoys is a fat pay package and a remarkably high social status. Both are totally unjustified.

Not all mate, not all.

A

@Sarath: Nobody asks for charity. The fact is that those people were selected on the basis of perceived scientific aptitude (the great JEE), but practically speaking, they display very little of it.

By "much more" I meant actually doing things with their "technical" knowledge. Which of course can be done for money. Instead most of these graduates just go and start a business, or "direct efforts" (i.e. coding/coding team lead, etc.). Don't tell me that's where the money is - that's taking the easy way out. If one was really so smart and intelligent, one would know how to make something from nothing, or how to make money from working a real technological job.

Almost all Indians recognized for any significant work in science and technology (non-business related) never had a decent education by any "standards", let alone IITs/NITs/any other top college. In this fact alone, the failure of every entrance exam is highly evident.

In fact, I think a lot of people are already aware of this fallacy, yet they continue with it only because changing it now will cause a huge problem akin to throwing a wrench in a well-oiled machine.

Think about it this way: My machine is old and inefficient, but it works without giving major problems. Why should I destroy it? It's too much work

thewisecrab said:
IIT never had any sheen to begin with. I attended a day of Techfest, and to be perfectly frank, had this been a developed nation, every freakin' engineering college would be exactly like IIT Bombay, if not better.

All IIT enjoys is a fat pay package and a remarkably high social status. Both are totally unjustified.

I study in a college where most of the students were IIT aspirants but failed to get in by a close margin, and i can say they are very diligent and hard working , i couldn't possibly imagine how god IIT Students would be.

IIT "enjoys is a fat pay package and a remarkably high social status" for a reason.

Sarath said:
Why is this thread still up?

Not everyone would want to do charity. Its not about how hard they work or how poor you are. It's just a moral or rather personal choice.

I don't like pointing fingers especially when I see most people around 20 complaining IIT(ians) do not do enough for the country. I am 22 now and not getting into IIT doesn't mean I have lost all my capabilities to help another soul. You guys need a self analysis asap (and that includes me too)

Period

You too are right.

But my words stand as it has multiple meaning.It depends how long can you go to unwrap it.It has everything bundled in a single statement.

prasath_digit said:
The real culprit is our nation's culture and belief system. There is no open-mindedness or mutual trust among students( atleast compared to the west ).

EXactly.as if spoken from my heart.

The others will see him/her as a threat and trying to outshine others and will bully him/her and make cheap stupid comments about him/her and make use of every opportunity they get to pull him/her down to their level.

actually i am a kind of guy who is same from both the sides.I mean i am what you think i am by reading my posts.I dont wear any masks and i dont like to make any false impression too.Am i good or not that i leave for people to justify.I post like i behave in real life.

Anyways as far as bullying is concerned.I take great interest for such kind of people. i take a great pleasure in making them succumb to my feet.There are many instances.From idiotic students to stupid profs everyone tried to avoid me.

A

mitraark said:
I study in a college where most of the students were IIT aspirants but failed to get in by a close margin, and i can say they are very diligent and hard working , i couldn't possibly imagine how god IIT Students would be.

IIT "enjoys is a fat pay package and a remarkably high social status" for a reason.

Any student who fails to get in by a small margin will work VERY HARD in future because he feels he has to work harder. This is why a lot of good non-IIT colleges have diligent and hardworking students.

One who gets in generally will not put in the same amount of hard work, mainly because he thinks "Hey, I'm in, I can take it easy now."

Trust me, I know IIT students, they're not as studious as you'd think. Definitely not compared to West Bengal students in general.

They enjoy high social status and good pay package because they certainly have some skills (+The IIT tag). The main issue is that you can do better elsewhere too

Oh, and by the way, diligence and hard work still cannot justify whether you were the best candidate for the job to begin with. Diligence and hard work only means you are determined to finish what you started, not that you have any interest or talent in what you are doing.

AcceleratorX said:
Any student who fails to get in by a small margin will work VERY HARD in future because he feels he has to work harder. This is why a lot of good non-IIT colleges have diligent and hardworking students.

One who gets in generally will not put in the same amount of hard work, mainly because he thinks "Hey, I'm in, I can take it easy now."

Trust me, I know IIT students, they're not as studious as you'd think. Definitely not compared to West Bengal students in general.

They enjoy high social status and good pay package because they certainly have some skills (+The IIT tag). The main issue is that you can do better elsewhere too

Oh, and by the way, diligence and hard work still cannot justify whether you were the best candidate for the job to begin with. Diligence and hard work only means you are determined to finish what you started, not that you have any interest or talent in what you are doing.

I beg to differ greatly , one simply doesn't get in an IIT just by fluke , yes some are less deserving than others , but still , all of them had to have worked quite hard at some point of time. Some students do tend to get lazy and deviate towards other 'activities' , but they can still get back in form when they are put to the test.

A

mitraark said:
I beg to differ greatly , one simply doesn't get in an IIT just by fluke , yes some are less deserving than others , but still , all of them had to have worked quite hard at some point of time. Some students do tend to get lazy and deviate towards other 'activities' , but they can still get back in form when they are put to the test.

Like I said, entrance exams are about "hard work" and "concentrated effort". Yet, they completely fail at analyzing aptitude.

The question was never about hard work - for that matter, most BE degrees require some degree of hard work to get through the four years.

My main point is clear - the students at IIT are smart, talented and hardworking, but they are not necessarily better than a student at any normal university.

I mentioned West Bengal universities for a reason - those students in some cases have better conceptual clarity than many IITians. Since I live in an "academic community", I have observed enough students from all over India to make this conclusion.

It is, therefore, unfair to give lesser packages to equally bright students just because they do not have the IIT tag.

The main issue is not IITians themselves, but the fact that the JEE (and AIEEE and just about any undergraduate entrance exam) is a flawed exam.

Most importantly, just because you can clear an exam with 200 MCQs does not mean you know anything at all about the subject. I will not elaborate at all on this point because then it will become an essay of sorts, but you can ask just about any highly experienced researcher (or even an industrial engineer) about this and you will know why.

P.S.: The new IITs don't have the same standard of students as the older ones. In my opinion the new IITs need to improve a lot (hopefully, in time they will).

D

True, now they have changed the pattern also. They combined IIT, AIEEE, PET into a single ISEET. They have totally lost their mind. 40% of 12th is now included and we all know that in village students cheat at very high level, so the person who is really talented have less chance to qualify.

I am also in class 12th in Gwalior and I want to qualify IIT with Aerospace Branch. :fc_bat:

H

It's late I know, but a change in title :

IITs have lost old sheen, says Everyone