Imagine Indian Judiciary system fully based on Ved, Upanishad, Gita

So,
What are the pros and cons can you imagine if our judiciary system were fully based on these texts?

What if all the Indian citizens are told to move to the moon ?

B

There will be tons of kans and raavan all around with sadly no Krishna and Ram to kill them.
Imagine if you have a billion dollars, I am more interested in this.

meetdilip said:
What if all the Indian citizens are told to move to the moon ?

create your own thread and continue there.

Do these texts explicitly have laws mentioned in them ?

W

Simple answer(see it as pro or con depending on your viewpoint): End of India as a nation.

Let's also add Smritis like Manu Smriti into the mix.

rhitwick said:
So,
What are the pros and cons can you imagine if our judiciary system were fully based on these texts?

evolution is a key for survivality and advancement. if some people want to stick to the 1000s of years old sutras and refuse to explore the new, then may god help them.

well, it actually is, at least for Hindus
what we call outdated British laws are actually waaay outdated Roman laws from thousands of years ago, example: "outraging modesty of woman"
I think it would be great if people actually understood what is going on, it is not that hard, and very, very natural
essentially, you do not do bad, or counter natural things

Manusmriti, the various Dharmashastras, Arthashastra and Dharma Smriti are the relevant texts here, apart from the Bhagawat Gita

Also one more thing, not many common people knew about Manusmriti till the British incorporated it into the legal system, which we have inherited.

icebags said:
evolution is a key for survivality and advancement. if some people want to stick to the 1000s of years old sutras and refuse to explore the new, then may god help them.

have to give em one thing, they had all the time to understand the basic human condition, without any distractions

Stormbringer said:
Do these texts explicitly have laws mentioned in them ?

yes

some of them may not make sense by modern standards, but can be considered as true nevertheless. For example, in a document about good architecture (Vastu Shastra) a good household involves non combative neighbours, obedient wife, and well behaved kids. We might consider it out of the domain, but that is the law.

W

Anorion said:
well, it actually is, at least for Hindus
what we call outdated British laws are actually waaay outdated Roman laws from thousands of years ago, example: "outraging modesty of woman"
I think it would be great if people actually understood what is going on, it is not that hard, and very, very natural
essentially, you do not do bad, or counter natural things

Manusmriti, the various Dharmashastras, Arthashastra and Dharma Smriti are the relevant texts here, apart from the Bhagawat Gita

Also one more thing, not many common people knew about Manusmriti till the British incorporated it into the legal system, which we have inherited.

have to give em one thing, they had all the time to understand the basic human condition, without any distractions

yes

some of them may not make sense by modern standards, but can be considered as true nevertheless. For example, in a document about good architecture (Vastu Shastra) a good household involves non combative neighbours, obedient wife, and well behaved kids. We might consider it out of the domain, but that is the law.

Manusmriti is cornerstone of caste system in India.

"obedient wife, and well behaved kids" may be considered in today's time as domestic violence victim & sexual abuse victim who remain silent.

It is simply a fool's dream to imagine that ideas & laws thought in a time when there was no electricity & computers can apply to present times.I dare you to say all of today's laws will be relevant thousands of years from now when AI,cloning & intelligent alien life are not myths but reality(e.g.cutting off one's limbs can be taken care of like band-aids so does the punishment still be severe like today).

Manusmriti is not the cornerstone of caste system in India
India had a varna system, the caste system was a gift from the invaders, Portuguese and English. We did not come up with a Criminal Tribes Act, the British did. We are still suffering from the consequences of that decision.

The word "caste" is Portuguese in origin
Varna system and caste system is not the same, varna system was fluid, caste system is rigid

When it comes to the Vastu Shastra, I'm talking about the approach. It makes sense to factor in interpersonal relationships and family dynamics in architecture and town planning, as against not factoring it in.

If the approach of spirit of the law as against the word of the law is taken when it comes to all the wealth of ancient scriptures we have, I am sure there is a lot to learn.

It is not like the alternative is very modern. Most of the laws that we follow today in India, can be traced back to the Solonian Constitution, which was drafted in the 6th century BC.

W

you say tomato, I say tomahto ,same meaning. Leaving aside all the "flowery language & justification" the ground reality is caste=varna & manusmriti=caste.

Don't take it otherwise but your post reminds me of this(watch from 5:24):

Code:

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYmO4nx1Ht4&t=324

Your language/arguments are good for "intellectual crowd" but speak it among common people(the one who matters & who actually make or break govt) & you will give the same impression as in above video(again don't take it otherwise,I am just stating reality from a common man's perspective).

Lol,
change my mind, the Varna system was not a problem before the invaders got here, it is position manufactured over at least a thousand years of propoganda
read some history books on the Delhi Sultanate and Medieval India, can recommend a few if needed, they document the perceptions and propaganda as against the reality
The divide and rule policy of the British Raj stratified the society, encouraging and cementing divisions in caste. Historians have been saying this for years, but to directly get the first hand knowledge, you have to read the books. Anyway, quoting one article here.

Modern historians have better explanations of the hardening of the caste system. They say religious and caste boundaries were relatively fluid in the Mughal and pre-Mughal subcontinent. The advent of the British changed that.

A look at how and when India’s caste system emerged

the caste system in its current form, and as it is understood, is not the same as the varna system as it originally was. It was much more fluid than most people imagine it to be.

Also, I believe in the intellectual potential of everyone, and don't change my arguments after evaluating the capacity of anyone. I have said these same things to many, many people, and my position is that the alleged toxic nature of manusmriti is due to cherry-picking some of the lines, and taking it out of context. Have encouraged many people to read it for themselves, and make up their own minds. A good translation is available here: The laws of Manu

But but, you guys are way offtopic here.

Imagine a scenario in today's time if Varnasram was valid today and was a law of land.

W

Anorion said:
Lol,
change my mind, the Varna system was not a problem before the invaders got here, it is position manufactured over at least a thousand years of propoganda
read some history books on the Delhi Sultanate and Medieval India, can recommend a few if needed, they document the perceptions and propaganda as against the reality
The divide and rule policy of the British Raj stratified the society, encouraging and cementing divisions in caste. Historians have been saying this for years, but to directly get the first hand knowledge, you have to read the books. Anyway, quoting one article here.

A look at how and when India’s caste system emerged

the caste system in its current form, and as it is understood, is not the same as the varna system as it originally was. It was much more fluid than most people imagine it to be.

Also, I believe in the intellectual potential of everyone, and don't change my arguments after evaluating the capacity of anyone. I have said these same things to many, many people, and my position is that the alleged toxic nature of manusmriti is due to cherry-picking some of the lines, and taking it out of context. Have encouraged many people to read it for themselves, and make up their own minds. A good translation is available here: The laws of Manu

Again,it is the reality that matters not the idealism.That article you linked,just see the 3 comments below where caste system is glorified as better than slavery.Now tell millions of these people that caste system is nothing but a propaganda & result of cherry picking of manusmriti & see how much success you will get.

Again as I said earlier you might be living among a reasonably intellectual crowd but that does not mean everyone else is the same.I have lived in UP for years & have known a fair amount of people from Bihar,MP etc(aka the heartland of India). Cherry picking of manusmriti as you call it is the base fact here in this region. Also don't forget this "cherry picking" argument also holds true for the most pressing security issue of modern times aka Islamic extremism & people have spent far more effort(money as well as manpower) & still came up short so your idea of converting people to stop cherry picking manusmriti is an even more unrealistic dream. Better to avoid manusmriti at all rather than taking chances of making the problem even more worse by accepting it & hoping everyone will understand its essence & not cherry picking to reinforce their own beliefs.

rhitwick said:
Imagine a scenario in today's time if Varnasram was valid today and was a law of land.

Hmmm... in its original form, it was not even a law? Which version are you referring to, Aurobindo or Prabhupada? Or some other one? I hope it is not Prabhupada.

For varnas and caste, there is a very detailed explanation in this speech by Dr Ambedkar, which unfortunately, was never delivered.

The Mahatma's view of Varna not only makes nonsense of the Vedic Varna, but it makes it an abominable thing. Varna and Caste are two very different concepts. Varna is based on the principle of each according to his worth, while Caste is based on the principle of each according to his birth. The two are as distinct as chalk is from cheese. In fact there is an antithesis between the two. If the Mahatma believes, as he does, in everyone following his or her ancestral calling, then most certainly he is advocating the Caste System, and in calling it the Varna System he is not only guilty of terminological inexactitude, but he is causing confusion worse confounded.

The Annihilation of Caste

W

I have no idea about different versions of manusmriti but I am reasonable enough to assume that just like Kuraan it may have many versions some of which are positive & some of which are negative.The point I am trying to make is that believers in caste system will always pick the version/lines which suits their ideals so the whole debate is pointless to begin with. Isn't this why even Dr. Ambedkar had given up on Hinduism because he knew it is realistically impossible to eradicate caste system without some major radical steps(which will very likely result in bloodshed) or waiting for a century or two hoping enough scientific progress(gene technology) will eventually end it.

whitestar_999 said:
Isn't this why even Dr. Ambedkar had given up on Hinduism because he knew it is realistically impossible to eradicate caste system without some major radical steps(which will very likely result in bloodshed) or waiting for a century or two hoping enough scientific progress(gene technology) will eventually end it.

Yup, you are right in that. Though he strongly rejected the practice of Hinduism at that time, he still had respect for the cluster of people around Swami Dayanand Saraswati, who wanted to revive the original vedic ideologies.

There are some surprising bombshells in Manusmriti. Off the top of my head, taking or giving dowry was prohibited, and resulted in the loss of your varna.

Anorion said:
Yup, you are right in that. Though he strongly rejected the practice of Hinduism at that time, he still had respect for the cluster of people around Swami Dayanand Saraswati, who wanted to revive the original vedic ideologies.

There are some surprising bombshells in Manusmriti. Off the top of my head, taking or giving dowry was prohibited, and resulted in the loss of your varna.

Damn! Could post link to these bombshells here? Would like to read it. Don't know when I might need to speak about these to educate people.

TheSloth said:
Damn! Could post link to these bombshells here? Would like to read it. Don't know when I might need to speak about these to educate people.

It is in Chapter 9.

Even a Sudra ought not to take a nuptial fee, when he gives away his daughter; for he who takes a fee sell his daughter, covering (the transaction by another name). Neither ancients nor moderns who were good men have done such (a deed) that, after promising (a daughter) to one man, they have her to another; Nor, indeed, have we heard, even in former creations, of such (a thing as) the covert sale of a daughter for a fixed price, called a nuptial fee.

Giving these examples would be cherry picking the best bits. The whole thing has to be understood in context. The same set of laws also talk of child marriage (but the age of the bride increases in proportion to the age of the groom), and that if the dowry has been paid, the woman should be "given" to the brother of the husband, if the husband were to die.

Okay, taking some specific examples, and showing what would happen for some crimes

Killing of black buck
Nothing. Not a crime. If the person who killed the animal also skinned it, and donated the skin to a Brahmin, then that person accumulates additional merit.

Caught taking a bribe
Entire wealth of that individual is stripped from him, and handed over to the government

Gimme ideas, will lookup and reply, have read most of it so have good idea where to find

Anorion said:
It is in Chapter 9.

Dude I stopped reading after 10 points. It is clearly written by group of men, and may be who were insecure or did not trust people around them. May be dishonesty and affair those days was even more common than today but believing and following on those writings today is just bizzare.

Yeah, it gets pretty horrible. Essentially, the laws for women and cattle are more or less the same.
But if possible, try and read the whole thing, that may paint a clearer picture of the time it was written in.

Anorion said:
Essentially, the laws for women and cattle are more or less the same.

I think cattle has more protective laws.

No not really

But if you eat a cow, one of the possible punishments is that you have to live like a cow, among cows for three days
If you eat a woman, then there is not the same punishment

Anyway, the laws we live under today are not too different really, so don't be so harsh to judge

I now understand exactly why this information cannot be disseminated in bits and pieces, it has to be transmitted as a whole. Everyone I knew who was aware of these matters has always asked me to be careful, but I never listened.