Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

Italy has decided not to send two marines back to India, where they stand accused of shooting two local fisherman, the Foreign Ministry in Rome said on Monday.

"Italy has always held that Indian authorities violated international law" in the case, the ministry said, adding that Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi had instructed Italy's ambassador in New Delhi to deliver a written note to the Indian government.

The case relates to Massimilano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, who are accused of fatally shooting the fisherman off the coast of Kerala, mistaking them for pirates.

India's Supreme Court in February let the two men return to Italy to vote in general elections. However, the court has ruled that India has the jurisdiction to try the two marines.

The two men, who were being held at the Italian Embassy in India and reported to a local police station once a week, were also allowed to return to their families for Christmas.

Italy has long held the case should be transferred to Italy, arguing that the actual shooting had taken place in international waters.

Rome's request that New Delhi agree to pursue a bilateral dialogue to find a diplomatic solution has gone unanswered, Mr. Terzi's office said.

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Just fu#kin great..

> First they send them back to Italy for Christmas.
> Second time our govt. sends them back to vote, couldn't they have emailed their choices? :evil:

Looks like someone wanted to save their Italian brethren, and also maybe settle the latest defense scandal.

Italy - Fool me once (bofors) shame on you, fool me twice (Augusta, those bleeding marines) shame on me (India).

I knew it that it was gonna happen. I remember some political personality answered on being questioned on govt's this action, "agar italy wale baad me culprits ko nahi bhejte hain, to kya hum unpe chadhai kar dein?"

Seriously, shame on India. This is like an open challenge/question to india's take on international issues like this. WE seriously need some kick ass foreign policy, not slave leaders.

India should reduce diplomatic relations with Italy to the minimum level that can happen without expelling the Italian ambassador if the marines do not return by April-end. After that, an Interpol notice should be issued, as they are absconding defendants to the case. Also, if by end of July the marines are not back, the ambassador should be expelled and the Indian embassy should stop issuing visas, or at the very least make it a billion times more difficult to get a visa for Italians.

However, I highly doubt anything is going to happen. If the govt. cannot handle an idiot of a north-western neighbour over dead soldiers whose human rights were violated, what will it do about civillians who although were killed, were not mutilated?

Many nations already view us as cojone-less, even if they do not openly admit it, and if we do not push our weight around in Europe especially after this, it is certain that other nations will become a lot more openly rude against us.

^^ you are right. Action must me taken. And Italy is not a that world superpower that will effect India. But may be India's top leadership hails from Italy. So who knows.

Lets see how our government answers this insult.

What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .

EpicSad

Government can't even handle internal issues and you all expect them to handle international issues?

Sarath said:
Lets see how our government answers this insult.

An official condemn will happen , that's the maximum Indian government can do .Don't expect more

Rishi. said:
What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .

EpicSad

I don't care that an Italian immigrant controls the government. Heck, I would not if it was a even a person of Chinese origin. What I do care about is how the government under the person concerned reacts.

Issuing statements is not enough. Cancelling the chopper deal could be an awesome step. As it is the idiot Pranab Mukherjee diluted the requirements for the chopper deal to allow AugustaWestland to sell its choppers.
If I remember correctly, the maximum elevation requirement was toned down from 19000 feet to 15000 feet. I bet he was thinking [read in Bengali] "Auto height-e amaar haart-attack hoiye jaabe. Aar taka ta kom lagbe kom height-e."

Rishi. said:
What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .

EpicSad

Erm...how does it matter if a person is of indian origin or not..do u think a person of indian origin would have done a better job...agree about the second part where its become more of a family thing...but blaming everything for a non indian origin thing is ridiculous...it shouldn't matter where you are coming from...

Extreme Gamer said:
I don't care that an Italian immigrant controls the government. Heck, I would not if it was a even a person of Chinese origin. What I do care about is how the government under the person concerned reacts.

Issuing statements is not enough. Cancelling the chopper deal could be an awesome step. As it is the idiot Pranab Mukherjee diluted the requirements for the chopper deal to allow AugustaWestland to sell its choppers.
If I remember correctly, the maximum elevation requirement was toned down from 19000 feet to 15000 feet. I bet he was thinking [read in Bengali] "Auto height-e amaar haart-attack hoiye jaabe. Aar taka ta kom lagbe kom height-e."

Also the main reason why the requirement was toned down was because in this case,there was only a single vendor or none who could meet the requirements...to increase the competition, they diluted it...its a common practice tbh...even mmrca deal had some issues with regards to test in leh where the engines couldn't cope up...its highly debatable whether this is right or wrong..what was the bigger issue in the augusta westland case was that how the helicopters were fast tracked ..whereas we have problems with procuring howitzers for the past few decades....

No surprise for me..
As our country is also controlled by italian :-D

Ronnie11 said:
Erm...how does it matter if a person is of indian origin or not..do u think a person of indian origin would have done a better job...agree about the second part where its become more of a family thing...but blaming everything for a non indian origin thing is ridiculous...it shouldn't matter where you are coming from...

TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

Extreme Gamer said:
India should reduce diplomatic relations with Italy to the minimum level that can happen without expelling the Italian ambassador if the marines do not return by April-end. After that, an Interpol notice should be issued, as they are absconding defendants to the case. Also, if by end of July the marines are not back, the ambassador should be expelled and the Indian embassy should stop issuing visas, or at the very least make it a billion times more difficult to get a visa for Italians.

However, I highly doubt anything is going to happen. If the govt. cannot handle an idiot of a north-western neighbour over dead soldiers whose human rights were violated, what will it do about civillians who although were killed, were not mutilated?

Many nations already view us as cojone-less, even if they do not openly admit it, and if we do not push our weight around in Europe especially after this, it is certain that other nations will become a lot more openly rude against us.

(seeing you back here after a long time

)

european businessmen are keen, as well as india has been inviting them, to invest here. this could be an opportune moment to flex arms (though am hoping too much from our govt.)

{just a funny quote; a user on FB had posted - "one italian doesn't want to leave india, and some don't want to come back to india."}

Rishi. said:
TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

wait...are pakistani's controlling the indian govt in any way...are they making any policies here as such..why would they when they have their own country to deal with...though there are many pakistanis who contribute to the indian society in different ways but thats another topic...

unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.

didn't quite get what you mean by this..zero interest in other country's politics??Who has any interest in other country's politics..we have diplomats for that..

also let me correct my statement..the ridiculous thing was not meant to be a personal attack to you...it was a general statement i made to people who were posting such comments..

Ronnie11 said:
wait...are pakistani's controlling the indian govt in any way...are they making any policies here as such..why would they when they have their own country to deal with...though there are many pakistanis who contribute to the indian society in different ways but thats another topic...

didn't quite get what you mean by this..zero interest in other country's politics??Who has any interest in other country's politics..we have diplomats for that..

also let me correct my statement..the ridiculous thing was not meant to be a personal attack to you...it was a general statement i made to people who were posting such comments..

By Pakistan(that was an example) I mean someone from that origin.He'll always be interested in that country's favor . Same story with the Italian lady.
Anyways let end it up here , o/w it might strecth into another heated argument.

Also the main reason why the requirement was toned down was because in this case,there was only a single vendor or none who could meet the requirements...to increase the competition, they diluted it...its a common practice tbh...even mmrca deal had some issues with regards to test in leh where the engines couldn't cope up...its highly debatable whether this is right or wrong..what was the bigger issue in the augusta westland case was that how the helicopters were fast tracked ..whereas we have problems with procuring howitzers for the past few decades....

If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.

TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

While the pasta-woman

we are discussing hasn't exactly done anything to "benefit" the nation, she hasn't exactly remained an Italian patriot. If she had then SMS-babu would not have said anything in public. He would remain Mr. Silent. I do not consider original ethnicity as a reason to hate someone. On that basis Anglo-Indians too should be treated like the pasta-woman, i.e. they are UK patriots until they contribute significantly to India. My personal opinion is that nations should be abolished. As a first step towards that, we need to have a global currency rather than many different currencies. In the long run it will highly streamline economic development. Watch Code Geass to get an idea of which concept I'm talking about [but I diverge from the topic at hand].
So yes, I do think that your statement is ridiculous. However, as that is my personal opinion, you have no right to say anything about it

(seeing you back here after a long time )

european businessmen are keen, as well as india has been inviting them, to invest here. this could be an opportune moment to flex arms (though am hoping too much from our govt.)

{just a funny quote; a user on FB had posted - "one italian doesn't want to leave india, and some don't want to come back to india."}

(Maybe you didn't notice, but I've been on for almost a month now. But I've decided to put the reasons for which I'd left this place behind me so I'm back although I cannot say I'll be overly active here. Thanks for the welcome though

)

I have to agree with your suggested economic steps. I did not think of that one. Give trouble to Italian corporations. But i think India is more concerned about credit ratings than a couple of dead civillians. But since SMS has said that "all options are open" (on expelling the Italian ambassador to India, did not expect this reaction though), corporations shouldn't be getting special treatment. Lets wait and watch.

The SC has been very accommodating to those soldiers needs (I'm not sure whether Marines are sailors or soldiers so I'll stick to soldiers), and I think the soldiers should respect the court. SC ruled that Kerala HC cannot hear the case, but murders happened in Indian territorial waters. This means India has the jurisdiction to try the pizza-boys. If Italy disagrees then it has to file a counter-claim. It can't disobey the court, especially after giving written consent.

On another note, could someone tell me how far off the Indian coast was the Italian ship? I will verify whether Italy's basis has any legal standing or not. No international law is above a sovereign nation's constitution, since these laws are only applicable to signatory nations that ratify their assent, and governments can withdraw their assent if they want to, although not without much international condemnation usually. If an international law conflicts with a national law, in a democracy the national law prevails, since the power of the legislature is above the power of the executive. On that basis, if the Indian constitution states that the Judiciary has the authority to hear cases when a crime is committed within India-claimed ocean territory, the SC has every right to do so, provided that the killings indeed took place within Indian territory.

Rishi. said:
By Pakistan(that was an example) I mean someone from that origin.He'll always be interested in that country's favor . Same story with the Italian lady.
Anyways let end it up here , o/w it might strecth into another heated argument.

yeah didn't want to start any flame war or anything..lets leave it here...

Extreme Gamer said:
If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.

Yes i totally agree with you..we need to develop the tech ourselves...sadly the investment on this has been rather weak...also most of these techs will take a lot of time to develop,so patience is key,but people tend to jump the wagon when a test fails...most of these R&D units like DRDO cannot match the pay of the private companies..i believe private companies should participate more in developing military tech..though i do know few IIT guys who are in DRDO & other institutions...money is a big probs here...
The M777 howitzers were brought up by BAE which coincidentally also owns the legendary bofors...USA manufactures these howitzers & the Indo-US deal for these proposed howitzers were via FMS...Its a direct govt to govt deal..so middlemen are generally not involved in this..i think Indian govt prefers this route mainly because of the lower chance of corruption in this method...or thats what i think it is...India concluded a similar deal sometime back for C17 via FMS...

crap,its gone off-topic..sry mods...

Extreme Gamer said:
If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.

While the pasta-woman we are discussing hasn't exactly done anything to "benefit" the nation, she hasn't exactly remained an Italian patriot. If she had then SMS-babu would not have said anything in public. He would remain Mr. Silent. I do not consider original ethnicity as a reason to hate someone. On that basis Anglo-Indians too should be treated like the pasta-woman, i.e. they are UK patriots until they contribute significantly to India. My personal opinion is that nations should be abolished. As a first step towards that, we need to have a global currency rather than many different currencies. In the long run it will highly streamline economic development. Watch Code Geass to get an idea of which concept I'm talking about [but I diverge from the topic at hand].
So yes, I do think that your statement is ridiculous. However, as that is my personal opinion, you have no right to say anything about it

(Maybe you didn't notice, but I've been on for almost a month now. But I've decided to put the reasons for which I'd left this place behind me so I'm back although I cannot say I'll be overly active here. Thanks for the welcome though )

I have to agree with your suggested economic steps. I did not think of that one. Give trouble to Italian corporations. But i think India is more concerned about credit ratings than a couple of dead civillians. But since SMS has said that "all options are open" (on expelling the Italian ambassador to India, did not expect this reaction though), corporations shouldn't be getting special treatment. Lets wait and watch.

The SC has been very accommodating to those soldiers needs (I'm not sure whether Marines are sailors or soldiers so I'll stick to soldiers), and I think the soldiers should respect the court. SC ruled that Kerala HC cannot hear the case, but murders happened in Indian territorial waters. This means India has the jurisdiction to try the pizza-boys. If Italy disagrees then it has to file a counter-claim. It can't disobey the court, especially after giving written consent.

On another note, could someone tell me how far off the Indian coast was the Italian ship? I will verify whether Italy's basis has any legal standing or not. No international law is above a sovereign nation's constitution, since these laws are only applicable to signatory nations that ratify their assent, and governments can withdraw their assent if they want to, although not without much international condemnation usually. If an international law conflicts with a national law, in a democracy the national law prevails, since the power of the legislature is above the power of the executive. On that basis, if the Indian constitution states that the Judiciary has the authority to hear cases when a crime is committed within India-claimed ocean territory, the SC has every right to do so, provided that the killings indeed took place within Indian territory.

ANglo-Indians are a different story , and I have no where mentioned hating them.I am talking specifically about that Pasta lady. IDK why you think she has never played an important role(be it positive or negative) . I can give you several instances for the same. But then again , its just a BS part of discussion. SO not gonna waste my time on it and try to defend my answer and heating up the discussion.

ANglo-Indians are a different story , and I have no where mentioned hating them.I am talking specifically about that Pasta lady. IDK why you think she has never played an important role(be it positive or negative) . I can give you several instances for the same. But then again , its just a BS part of discussion. SO not gonna waste my time on it and try to defend my answer and heating up the discussion.

Don't worry

I won't get pissed. I said that she has not done anything to benefit the nation. Maybe the govt. collectively but Pasta-woman alone, and by herself has done very little by your definition.

Seriously!!! They let those culprits go for vote in general elections??

They could have voted from India. Italy allows its citizens to vote from a foreign country. Why did the court allow them to go?

This was inevitable at some point anyway. What puzzles me is why did the Italian government sent back after Christmas holidays?

If Italy is ready to put those marines under trial and give them the punishment they deserve, then let them be where they are.

KDroid said:
They could have voted from India. Italy allows its citizens to vote from a foreign country. Why did the court allow them to go?

This was inevitable at some point anyway. What puzzles me is why did the Italian government sent back after Christmas holidays?

If Italy is ready to put those marines under trial and give them the punishment they deserve, then let them be where they are.

Its all a well staged game. Our govt. will act all angry and serious for maybe a week or two, so will our media.

Then as usual everything will be forgotten.
Quid pro quo.

Renny said:
Its all a well staged game. Our govt. will act all angry and serious for maybe a week or two, so will our media.

Then as usual everything will be forgotten.
Quid pro quo.

well it could go the other way, because the election season is coming... so maybe the govt will dilly dally till then and then forget the people who these marines shot dead even existed.

Read this article to get a clearer perspective on the Italian marine's issue. Very few publications show honest opinions like this these days:
Reading the Italian Job Right
Excerpt:

The Coast Guard’s report also mentioned that the Italian ship was 22.5 nautical miles off the coast of Kerala. This is beyond the 12-mile limit of national territorial waters within which India has exclusive jurisdiction. It is also within the 24-mile contiguous zone and the 200-mile Economic Exclusion Zone beyond which international waters indisputably start and the marines would have come under the jurisdiction of the country whose flag the vessel was flying. The dispute is over which country has jurisdiction and the degree of rights over the 188 miles in between the EEZ and territorial waters.

baccilus said:
Read this article to get a clearer perspective on the Italian marine's issue. Very few publications show honest opinions like this these days:
Reading the Italian Job Right
Excerpt:

Jaideep Prabhu's articles are very informative and eye-opening. Here's one of my favorites The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People (in India) : Centre Right India

None is respecting India, as we (Govt.) are keeping-mum all the times, even in the crucial matters (at times, by giving neutral comments).

Look at Pakistan, Pakistan's Parliament passes resolution against Afzal Guru's hanging | NDTV.com

I wonder why such controversies crop up whenever a new scam breaks out.

Even as the two were detained by the order of the Supreme Court, it did not charge the marines. In the absence of any charges, they left the country.

“As of now the SC had leveled no charges on them (the marines). SC was only determining who has the jurisdiction to prosecute them. The process of jurisdiction was not even initiated. As a result, India and Italy were to settle this jurisdiction issue and come to an understanding. Italy kept asking India for a diplomatic solution to this but there was no response from the Indian side,” the official said.

Technically, they were detained in India “without any charges.” So, legally, there is no case pending against them. The official also said that under Article 97 of United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), it is the flag state which has the right to jurisdiction and the flag state in this case is Italy.
The Indian fishing vessel had no national flag.

Whom to blame? Is India becoming too soft or too lame, nowadays?

one thing is for sure...india gets pawned in law everytime with european or american counterparts...

Gearbox said:
*www.business-standard.com/article/...india-without-any-charges-113031500466_1.html

Whom to blame? Is India becoming too soft or too lame, nowadays?

Too lame.

Politicians in our country are at top most position/power and the way to this position is anonymous to all of us. As like to be an IES/IPS, one should work hard or to be in IIT/IIM , one should crack a competitive exam but what about Politics? Only siblings/family members of present politicians can become same and we have to accept.

havoknation said:
Politicians in our country are at top most position/power and the way to this position is anonymous to all of us. As like to be an IES/IPS, one should work hard or to be in IIT/IIM , one should crack a competitive exam but what about Politics? Only siblings/family members of present politicians can become same and we have to accept.

This....

kind of strange that a person like someone who enjoys so much diplomatic immunity was even allowed to be guarantor for such one risky case. whether the ambassador can be sued or not totally lies in the grey area of geneva convention and may be was the yield of some thoughtful planning or may be just the situation came out like this. but it was quite strange that this kind of situation was even allowed to happen.

well, it's still getting more and more interesting everyday and perhaps we will get an opportunity to see another "jailed abroad" episode in nat geo in future.

India: A country which allow its prisoners accused of murder to spend Christmas with family .

N

Stop blaming the italian government for not sending back the 2 marine officers.. . . . .
Even we are not returning an italian since last 45 years..!!!

And now the entire EU is standing shoulder to shoulder with Italy.
Bad move from our central government in sending those marines home in the first place.

freshseasons said:
India: A country which allow its prisoners accused of murder to spend Christmas with family .

The reason was they were italians :-D

And u should know india is under italian leadership :cry:

funskar said:
The reason was they were italians
And u should know india is under italian leadership

Shhhhh......you are being watched.

Shhhhh......you are being watched.

Some comments here will make Kapil Sibal sue you, your family and everyone else associated with you for sedition, violating section 66A of the IT act and **** knows how many other draconian acts that are there in the Indian Constitution.

Extreme Gamer said:
Some comments here will make Kapil Sibal sue you, your family and everyone else associated with you for sedition, violating section 66A of the IT act and **** knows how many other draconian acts that are there in the Indian Constitution.

TDF has good SEO ranking , guess what.!!! I hope your comments don't appear on the top search results.

TBH I don't care even if it does. At the very worst I'll spend a night or two in jail and get another opportunity to take potshots at that idiot. And I'm pretty certain TDF's privacy policies will keep me safe...for some time.

Rishi. said:
Shhhhh......you are being watched.

Yeah I know..
Will have to suffer 2-3 days in jail after even telling truth..

We should take a firm stand and not fall for EU's pressure.
Its funny when the same EU didn't say a single word when their supply line was blocked by pak for months. They paid billions of dollars in additional expenses and had to get the supplies via Kazakhstan and finally agree to Pak's terms but since we are a soft nation anyone can dictate us on their terms.

Renny said:
Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

Italy has decided not to send two marines back to India, where they stand accused of shooting two local fisherman, the Foreign Ministry in Rome said on Monday.

"Italy has always held that Indian authorities violated international law" in the case, the ministry said, adding that Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi had instructed Italy's ambassador in New Delhi to deliver a written note to the Indian government.

The case relates to Massimilano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, who are accused of fatally shooting the fisherman off the coast of Kerala, mistaking them for pirates.

India's Supreme Court in February let the two men return to Italy to vote in general elections. However, the court has ruled that India has the jurisdiction to try the two marines.

The two men, who were being held at the Italian Embassy in India and reported to a local police station once a week, were also allowed to return to their families for Christmas.

Italy has long held the case should be transferred to Italy, arguing that the actual shooting had taken place in international waters.

Rome's request that New Delhi agree to pursue a bilateral dialogue to find a diplomatic solution has gone unanswered, Mr. Terzi's office said.

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Just fu#kin great..

> First they send them back to Italy for Christmas.
> Second time our govt. sends them back to vote, couldn't they have emailed their choices?

Looks like someone wanted to save their Italian brethren, and also maybe settle the latest defense scandal.

Italy - Fool me once (bofors) shame on you, fool me twice (Augusta, those bleeding marines) shame on me (India).

An Italian person is ruling our country, what do you expect, if I was in that "Person's" place, I'd have done the same.

tkin said:
An Italian person is ruling our country, what do you expect, ?.

How about Free/SubSidized Italian Pastas , Pizzas .

,

things going more and more interesting:
"*in.news.yahoo.com/eu-warns-india-over-bar-italian-ambassador-145429593.html"

seems it is really going to be a test of indian political, economical and international capabilities - welcome to the battlegrounds of 21st century.

Indian Govt. is getting screwed on all sides.
^ Link not working..

freshseasons said:
India: A country which allow its prisoners accused of murder to spend Christmas with family .

I did not heard such things in any other country.
Its common sense "Nobody will leave its family and country for prison"

W

rst said:
I did not heard such things in any other country.
Its common sense "Nobody will leave its family and country for prison"

it happens only in India.

Gearbox said:
Indian Govt. is getting screwed on all sides.
^ Link not working..

will work now. :lol:

O

Renny said:
Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

Just fu#kin great..

> First they send them back to Italy for Christmas.
> Second time our govt. sends them back to vote, couldn't they have emailed their choices?

Looks like someone wanted to save their Italian brethren, and also maybe settle the latest defense scandal.

Italy - Fool me once (bofors) shame on you, fool me twice (Augusta, those bleeding marines) shame on me (India).

the govt should have realised that fascist italians cant be trusted

it has nothing to do with italians being fascist, its pretty clear india cant exert her right as a nation because of a laughing stock it has become. there have been so many instances : like after the 1993 bombay blasts india could catch all accused including tiger-memon and dawood ibrahim, dawood ibrahim even wanted to surrender back to india if all previous cases were dropped against him and he was tried solely on 1993 blasts . but thanks to the incompetent govt, and the hand in glove policy of the Maharashtra MLA / MP's it did not happen.

its very simple : the world will take you for granted if you dont have the balls to stand up and put people in their place, by force or by action.

ojas1010 said:
the govt should have realised that fascist italians cant be trusted

Fascist Italians?

They are doing what any ideal government would have done. Taking steps in the interest of its citizens.

KDroid said:
Fascist Italians?

They are doing what any ideal government would have done. Taking steps in the interest of its citizens.

right.
India should learn from them

B

i wonder... even though we have Italian government here in india.....why so much difference!!

Bhargav Simha said:
i wonder... even though we have Italian government here in india.....why so much difference!!

What you smoking?

Marines accused of killing fishermen questioned in Italy | Reuters

B

DeSmOnD dAvId said:
What you smoking?

yeah i smoke, but try this. India is run by a government headed by an italian.... and the biggest scams which occur when She or her husband are in power are related to Italian companies..
Do you think its coincidence that Lesser known italian companies scam in India when her group(in congress) is heading the government, when ther are bigger and more corrupt companies (like the American companies which run many countries) ??!!

And now the linience given to Italian soldiers....

You need need to start smoking too...

W

Bhargav Simha said:
yeah i smoke, but try this. India is run by a government headed by an italian.... and the biggest scams which occur when She or her husband are in power are related to Italian companies..
Do you think its coincidence that Lesser known italian companies scam in India when her group(in congress) is heading the government, when ther are bigger and more corrupt companies (like the American companies which run many countries) ??!!

And now the linience given to Italian soldiers....

You need need to start smoking too...

many of you are forgetting something.it is the supreme court which gave the final order of sending them back on the assurance of italian ambassador's written statement not the govt.let's say govt,prosecution,defense & ambassador all were together in this it still does not change the fact that supreme court made a mistake.like some one above already said there is no country(at least where formal rule of law is there) which allow prisoners accused of killing to go home to spend vacation & such.in this case supreme court judges made a wrong judgement & they will learn from this especially after being humbled by diplomatic immunity cover which they like it or not but India has to follow(after all India too has ambassadors in other countries).

Fishermen killings: Italy says it will send back two marines sought by India
wow..i will be damned..never thought this would happen...think some deal has been worked out between india and italy...

Problem solved now, thread can be closed

yeah
Both of them are coming today.

*fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/484200_440734076005446_1880583389_n.jpg

S

Now,Italy would send two marines to India. :twisted:

B

whitestar_999 said:
many of you are forgetting something.it is the supreme court which gave the final order of sending them back on the assurance of italian ambassador's written statement not the govt.let's say govt,prosecution,defense & ambassador all were together in this it still does not change the fact that supreme court made a mistake.like some one above already said there is no country(at least where formal rule of law is there) which allow prisoners accused of killing to go home to spend vacation & such.in this case supreme court judges made a wrong judgement & they will learn from this especially after being humbled by diplomatic immunity cover which they like it or not but India has to follow(after all India too has ambassadors in other countries).

I was kidding... btw we all know how fair/independent the Supreme court has become, I think the nowadays the sessions courts are more independent than the supreme court..

Anyways all well that ends well, Kudos to our italian government has finally shown some guts.. :twisted:

N

Lol @ kdroid... Excellent image

KDroid said:
*fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/484200_440734076005446_1880583389_n.jpg

first manmohan picture photoshopped..he never raised his hands atleast for once, throughout his entire life

Extreme Gamer said:
Problem solved now, thread can be closed

the discussions at TDF have been read by the world

J

LIVE: No arrest, no death for Marines, India assures Italy

The funny thing is, they are murderers, But india assured italy as no arrest and no death.

Are they(murderers) guests of india?

Bhargav Simha said:
yeah i smoke, but try this. India is run by a government headed by an italian.... and the biggest scams which occur when She or her husband are in power are related to Italian companies..
Do you think its coincidence that Lesser known italian companies scam in India when her group(in congress) is heading the government, when ther are bigger and more corrupt companies (like the American companies which run many countries) ??!!

And now the linience given to Italian soldiers....

You need need to start smoking too...

She is as much Italian as Bobby Jindal is Indian.....your argument is invalid.

Also, this :

whitestar_999 said:
many of you are forgetting something.it is the supreme court which gave the final order of sending them back on the assurance of italian ambassador's written statement not the govt.let's say govt,prosecution,defense & ambassador all were together in this it still does not change the fact that supreme court made a mistake.like some one above already said there is no country(at least where formal rule of law is there) which allow prisoners accused of killing to go home to spend vacation & such.in this case supreme court judges made a wrong judgement & they will learn from this especially after being humbled by diplomatic immunity cover which they like it or not but India has to follow(after all India too has ambassadors in other countries).

Ronnie11 said:
Fishermen killings: Italy says it will send back two marines sought by India
wow..i will be damned..never thought this would happen...think some deal has been worked out between india and italy...

Woah, finally this whole fiasco ends.

jaleel said:
LIVE: No arrest, no death for Marines, India assures Italy

The funny thing is, they are murderers, But india assured italy as no arrest and no death.

Are they(murderers) guests of india?

So, why bring them back if we can't sentence them, paid vacation much?

DeSmOnD dAvId said:
She is as much Italian as Bobby Jindal is Indian.....your argument is invalid.

Yup, Right. Why Sonia Gandhi is more Indian than most Indians: *bit.ly/ZdHZgw :lol:

Italian marines arrive in India to face trial; Khurshid says they won't face death penalty

Won't be arrested, won't be awarded death penalty, will stay in embassy during trial, will serve sentence in Italy. Kya Mazaak hai.

And what right does Khurshid have to announce the verdict? Who is he to say that the marines will not get Life Sentence? The court will take its own course and decide what the right punishment is.

KDroid said:
Won't be arrested, won't be awarded death penalty, will stay in embassy during trial, will serve sentence in Italy. Kya Mazaak hai.

And what right does Khurshid have to announce the verdict? Who is he to say that the marines will not get Life Sentence? The court will take its own course and decide what the right punishment is.

Khurshid mantri hai re,
And their fate will not be decided by the court,it will be decided by SG

CommanderShawnzer said:
Khurshid mantri hai re,

Oh! So a minister is free to comment on a matter that is sub judice and even announce the verdict?

@previous few posts: WTF? I thought it was up to the supreme court to decide whether the murders could be classified as rarest of rare? Are they trying to say that the court isn't as independent as the average citizen is led to believe?

i think the deal is only limited to the fact that there will not be any death penalty given to these marines....first india needs to build a case becaause there are contradictions within kerala police's story itself...

Extreme Gamer said:
@previous few posts: WTF? I thought it was up to the supreme court to decide whether the murders could be classified as rarest of rare? Are they trying to say that the court isn't as independent as the average citizen is led to believe?

Edited-Wrong..Sorry..

there is practically no chance to DS in this case, marines were doing their duty, and actually did overdid it by opening fire to boats without being sure about whether they belonged to pirates or fishermen. it will be difficult for the court-walas to arrange the case such that "the marines actually intended to kill them knowing they are simple fishermen", so they may will be punished with may be years in jail considering it was a mistake/ lack of training from their part. (i think marines already accepted that it was a mistake)
DS is given in rarest of rare and brutal cases, so that will not be in this case. and the minister knows it pretty well.

icebags said:
there is practically no chance to DS in this case, marines were doing their duty, and actually did overdid it by opening fire to boats without being sure about whether they belonged to pirates or fishermen. it will be difficult for the court-walas to arrange the case such that "the marines actually intended to kill them knowing they are simple fishermen", so they may will be punished with may be years in jail considering it was a mistake/ lack of training from their part. (i think marines already accepted that it was a mistake)
DS is given in rarest of rare and brutal cases, so that will not be in this case. and the minister knows it pretty well.

We know that as well, but say if they get 2 yrs jail time, why won't they serve it here? In India?

international relations, u gotta give some to get some. it was huge mistake to let them go out from this country already, so guess to recover from this, govt didnt see any better way.

W

Sometimes diplomatic back door talks happen with the govt with the presence of an SC judge or any representative of SC..they are kept in loop about this...afterall its their judgement

not true.SC judges don't sit with govt. officials on matters of discussing cases related to foreign nationals because there is no need.you have forgotten but this is one of the reasons why there is a clause of pardon by the president in constitution which is 100% effective against any indian court order including supreme court.in the worst case scenario govt can always use this clause to keep its international promises.

whitestar_999 said:
not true.SC judges don't sit with govt. officials on matters of discussing cases related to foreign nationals because there is no need.you have forgotten but this is one of the reasons why there is a clause of pardon by the president in constitution which is 100% effective against any indian court order including supreme court.in the worst case scenario govt can always use this clause to keep its international promises.

I phrased the sentence wrong..sorry...my bad..didn't come out the way i wanted...

was trying to compare the case with the abu salem deal made with the Portuguese govt and advani...

What I meant in my question was that as far as I know, sentencing is at the jury's discretion, and that there can be no outside influence. I mean that while it is most likely that the judge will pronounce them guilty and at the very worst sentence them to life imprisonment, the gov't. is not authorized to "foretell" what the decision will be, as far as I know.

the court verdict will be a life time imprisonment and they well be let off after a few years because of good behavior / pardon appeal

S

i think people are forgetting many important parts of this case:
1)kerala government did not have jurisdiction on the italian marines.yet a case was filed.there were no legal provisions to prosecute these people.
because of this,SC was giving a breather to the government by even hearing the case,and not throwing it out.
and bringing the ethnicity of the ruling party's brass into this is just ridiculous.

B

DeSmOnD dAvId said:
She is as much Italian as Bobby Jindal is Indian.....your argument is invalid.

sggupta95 said:
i think people are forgetting many important parts of this case:
1)kerala government did not have jurisdiction on the italian marines.yet a case was filed.there were no legal provisions to prosecute these people.
because of this,SC was giving a breather to the government by even hearing the case,and not throwing it out.
and bringing the ethnicity of the ruling party's brass into this is just ridiculous.

I apologize to the Italian brigade for hurting their emotions, I take my comments back. Thought you could take a joke!!

NEW UPDATE Italian foreign minister resigns over marines' return to India | Reuters

Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi resigned on Tuesday over his government's decision to return two marines to India.

Terzi said he was stepping down to protect the "honour of the country, of the armed forces, and Italian diplomacy", during testimony to the lower house of parliament, drawing loud applause from lawmakers.

"I can no longer be part of this government and I announce my resignation," he said. "My reservations about sending the marines back to India were not listened to."

Listen , observe and learn from this if you can and try to understand a dime if you care how horrible country we are living in.

Do you see or even dream any of our foreign minister or any for that, ever resigning for so petite an issue ? Italians have a pride for their country and this shows.
Oh God what have i sinned to be born here under this government ,where Salman Kurshid caught under controversy of corruption amassing funds for handicapped was Elevated to foreign minister instead of him being thrown out and asked to resign.