Power Strip/Surge Protector vs UPS

R

Hi, i have a seasonic S12ii 620W PSU.
i want to know if frequent (2-3 times a day) power outages damage hardware and if i really need a UPS as i am not really concerned with data loss and only want to protect my hardware or can i use some inexpensive Power Strip/Surge Protector instead.

I can't really afford a UPS now and from what i have read Seasonic PSU's have problem with non-sinewave and only perform with pure sinewave UPS/Inverters and those are even more expensive. :-(

Thanks

CyberPower 1000VA UPS @ 4k

Power Strip does not protect your hardware anyway.

W

power outages as such don't affect pc components much except maybe hard disk.surge protectors are meant to save pc components from sudden large spike in voltage(e.g.some short circuit in mains line) which can fry your pc components.if power in your area is stable(aka no voltage fluctuations) & data loss is not your concern then it should be fine.btw power strip is different from surge protector.basically power strip+surge protection=surge protector.

R

bssunil said:
CyberPower 1000VA UPS @ 4k /QUOTE]
is it this one and pure sine? cyber power bu1000 UPS - Buy Online at Low Prices on Snapdeal

whitestar_999 said:

power outages as such don't affect pc components much except maybe hard disk.surge protectors are meant to save pc components from sudden large spike in voltage(e.g.some short circuit in mains line) which can fry your pc components.if power in your area is stable(aka no voltage fluctuations) & data loss is not your concern then it should be fine.btw power strip is different from surge protector.basically power strip+surge protection=surge protector.

Click to expand...

thanks for the clarification
so power outages can only affect hard disk but voltage spike can damage all components (CPU,GPU)?

so will a surge protector prevent that damage and if yes then can u plz suggest a good one.
will the voltage spike be regulated by voltage stabalizer used for fridge/AC's etc?

W

UPS Backup | Power Supply | Emergency Power Systems ? CyberPower Systems, Inc.

On Battery Output Voltage Simulated Sine Wave at 220Vac +/-5%

you will not find pure sine wave ups/inverter at 4-5k price.belkin make good surge protector.voltage stabilizer for fridge/ac is not suitable for pc.working of active pfc psu with non pure sinewave ups depends on a lot of factors & in most of the cases it will work if ups has large enough power capacity.skipping the details i think an 1100VA APC UPS should be able to handle your seasonic 620w psu correctly(assuming no other equipment like monitor,speaker etc connected to ups).

R

whitestar_999 said:
UPS Backup | Power Supply | Emergency Power Systems ? CyberPower Systems, Inc.

you will not find pure sine wave ups/inverter at 4-5k price.belkin make good surge protector.voltage stabilizer for fridge/ac is not suitable for pc.working of active pfc psu with non pure sinewave ups depends on a lot of factors & in most of the cases it will work if ups has large enough power capacity.skipping the details i think an 1100VA APC UPS should be able to handle your seasonic 620w psu correctly(assuming no other equipment like monitor,speaker etc connected to ups).

thanks
the 1100 VA UPS is beyond my budget and in this thread the OP is already facing problems with 520 watt s12ii on the same ups *www.digit.in/forum/power-supply-cabinets-mods/191345-seasonic-s12ii-520w-no-backup-apc-ups.html

i checked for belkin surge protectors but they vary greatly in cost and specs. can u tell me which one should i get or the specs (how many joules, etc)?

W

as it was mentioned in that thread the psu did work correctly for about 6 months with that ups so most likely the active pfc circuit of psu got damaged.since data protection is not your concern you can skip the ups.as for surge protector specs it all depends on how much security you want.basic model with 200joule & 6500amp should be enough for the usual spikes but if lightening strikes the electric pole near your home then no commonly available surge protector will help.
9 things you should know about surge protectors - CNET

I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform

R

whitestar_999 said:
as it was mentioned in that thread the psu did work correctly for about 6 months with that ups so most likely the active pfc circuit of psu got damaged.since data protection is not your concern you can skip the ups.as for surge protector specs it all depends on how much security you want.basic model with 200joule & 6500amp should be enough for the usual spikes but if lightening strikes the electric pole near your home then no commonly available surge protector will help.
9 things you should know about surge protectors - CNET

thnx but still i cant afford APC 1100 VA its around 6k n data loss isn't an issue so like u said i'll skip the UPS
for surge protector are these belkin one's good
Belkin 4 Socket Surge Protector (F9E400zb) Price in India - Buy Belkin 4 Socket Surge Protector (F9E400zb) online at Flipkart.com - 200joule & 6500amp

Belkin 6 Socket Surge Protector (F9E600zb) Price in India - Buy Belkin 6 Socket Surge Protector (F9E600zb) online at Flipkart.com - 420 j n 13000 amp.
ther's no max wattage mentioned though

Zebronics ZEB-4PS (plus) 4 Strip Surge Protector Price in India - Buy Zebronics ZEB-4PS (plus) 4 Strip Surge Protector online at Flipkart.com

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kARTechnology said:
I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform

cant afford invertor...thnx anyways

[MENTION=16]rahul[/MENTION]
try Buy APC Essential Surge Protector 8 Outlets, Universal Sockets with 2 USB charging ports - P8U2 Online at Low Prices in India - Amazon.in
it has usb ports too. but there is a 6/4 port one, maybe its out of stock

Surge energy rating
600 Joules
Peak Current Common Mode
13 kAmps

I bought one and it'll be delivered today

W

zebronics is not even worth mentioning,stick to belkin.

W

rahul7 said:
thnx but still i cant afford APC 1100 VA its around 6k n data loss isn't an issue so like u said i'll skip the UPS
for surge protector are these belkin one's good

Long before solving a problem, first it must be identified. A surge is a high voltage. You described a power loss - a near zero or zero voltage. Obviously there is no relationship between both anomalies. Anyone who did not note that up front should have all his advise suspect or ignored.

A voltage drop (near zero voltage) does not damage any electronics. In fact, voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Even that is perfectly good voltage for any electronics. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off.

Low voltage is a threat to unsaved data. That is what a UPS is for - temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.

The Belkin and other adjacent magic boxes claim to protect from voltage anomalies that are already made irrelevant by robust protection already inside all appliances. Your concern is a rare transient - maybe once every seven years - that will easily blow through that Belkin (or UPS). This potentially destructive anomaly must be averted where all utility wires enter the building with (and this must have most of your attention) a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Only then does this completely different device (also called a protector) make potentially destructive transients irrelevant.

This 'whole house' solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much did consumers (educated by advertising) recommend spending on a UPS or Belkin?

Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that near zero protector claim to absorb? 600? Appreciate why informed consumers spend tens of times less money on the proven 'whole house' protector. So that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Not even damage a protector.

All those other near zero solutions also need to be protected by the one 'whole house' solution. It is the only solution found even 100 years ago so that surges (including direct lightning strikes) cause no damage. And it is rarely known to so many consumers only educated by advertising; not by well proven science.

W

i have read about this in your earlier posts too & it is quite good as you say but the problem is here in India many houses are not exactly the independent unit type like those in USA & getting such electricity work done will require getting permission from a lot of people.even after all that trouble it is also hard to find a qualified electrician to do this.also i searched a bit & found these articles which suggest it is not as foolproof as claimed:
The Myth of Whole-House Surge Protection - Article from CE Pro

a service entrance surge protector can provide some protection from the 20 percent of surges originating outside a house, but not the 80 percent of surges which originate within a house

Surge Protection Safety | Home Surge Protection | HouseLogic

For the most sensitive electronics, such as computers and home entertainment systems, a second layer of protection is recommended in the form of point-of-use SPDs.
No surge-protection device is foolproof; if your house takes a direct hit from lightning, only luck and good karma will keep anything plugged into a power source from being obliterated.

R

whitestar_999 said:
zebronics is not even worth mentioning,stick to belkin.

thanks for the help...i'll buy belkin ....the only diff b/w 200 joules and 400 joules is that the latter can take more hits?

W

whitestar_999 said:
also i searched a bit & found these articles which suggest it is not as foolproof as claimed:

[STRIKE]The technically naïve are obvious once we include numbers he forgot to include. His entire claim is subjective - which by itself implies urban myth. Always reject subjective claims as bogus or scams.

Surges created inside a house are how many volts? Single digit. Also called noise. An adjacent and plug-in protector probably has a let-through voltage of 500 volts. That means it does nothing until a transient well exceeds 500 volts. What does it do for appliance generated noise that is typically less than 10 volts? Why did the author forget to include those numbers? Most are that easily manipulated by propaganda. The protector does nothing but rape your pocketbook.

Now, if appliances are creating potentially destructive transients, then the first destroyed appliance is itself. After all, the transient is largest at an appliance that creates it. How often every day do you replaced self destructed appliances?

Third, if appliances were generating those destructive transients, then you are replacing appliances, CFL bulbs, etc hourly. More numbers that expose that article as something akin to a lie. Why did you not ask these damning questions? Why are you not replacing destroyed appliances hourly? Because all appliances already contain protector more robust than those near zero power strips provided.

Nobody said anything about rewiring a building. If your country needs permissions and specially trained experts to upgrade earth ground wires, then your country and its people have no business competing in free markets. You have hyped into complication what should be possible even by informed layman. Obtaining an informed workman should require nothing more than a phone call. After all, do you need government permission to fix broken windows? If you cannot properly earth a 'whole house' protector, then your government is the only reason for surge damage. Attack the problem. That would also example house fires due to plug-in protectors that do not have the necessary protection and that only claim near zero protection.

According to your author, those protectors must be replaced hourly due to damage created by 80% of the spikes created inside the house - using their numbers.

If using plug-in protectors, appliance damage is made easier. If using that completely irresponsible author as a legitimate source, then a serious credibility problem exists. That author lies by hyping single digit volt transients as if thousands of volts. Transients generated inside any house are made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance including the appliance that generates that tiny noise. That author hyped fear by making claims without specification numbers. Making him and his editor irresponsible.

Show me a household appliance that generates 1000 volt spikes. What does it (and near zero 400 joules protectors that can cause house fires) do when destructive transients (hundreds of thousands of joules) occur? We are now discussing damning numbers - not some author's subjective and wild speculations.[/STRIKE]

This westom guy, i think this is the same guy on tomsHardware forums too writing useless wall of text as always:

Surge protector or UPS for gaming PC? [Solved] - Gaming - Components

W

i know.already banned him permanently.

S

kARTechnology said:
I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform

Thanks for the info dude.Now if you can please just look into my matter.Its a request.I couldn't find answers anywhere.

I have a bpe 600va UPS. Which claims to protect from surges , but a couple weeks ago some fault happened in my society or building or whatever , I was not at home but when I came I saw that the MCB had tripped , as soon as I checked my PC it wasn't powering on , turns out my Motherboard , speakers and tablet were completely fried.thank god 2 of them were in warranty.When I called the electrician he said that the earthing and all was fine so most probably some wires had crossed somewhere and caused a voltage of 440v which you described.Can you please elaborate what setup exactly do I need to prevent this in future?do I just need a better UPS like APC ?do I need an inverter like luminous zelio or which one?

Thanks v much.

Buy APC 1100VA UPS @ 5.5k

This UPS has Surge Protector Sockets which will surely protect your components in the future.

I have APC 1000VS UPS @ 7.5k

W

[MENTION=284891]samthechamp[/MENTION], the answer to your query is in the quoted text in your post itself.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

S

whitestar_999 said:
[MENTION=284891]samthechamp[/MENTION], the answer to your query is in the quoted text in your post itself.

I didn't really undeestand what he meant by that.Should I use a surge protector with inverter?I have heard that's bad for both of them.And there are no technical specs of any inverter like sukam and luminous regarding any surge protection or "synchronization". Can you recommend any inverter which has these.?

[MENTION=105611]bssunilreddy[/MENTION] thanks for the suggestion.I am currently thinking to buy BAVK UPS PRO 1100VA ,it has better surge protection and design and some features.Can you please tell me if it will be possible to use exide or any third company batteries with the model in future if I want to replace them?I have seen posts about changing batteries of bck UPS but not back ups pro.

W

I think he meant use a digital inverter with "pure sine wave" feature with/without(not sure about this but personally i prefer using a ups also) a normal ups.

If you want to go hyper protective:

Technically Speaking, In my shop, which is in a village, only we use 3 phase line to power3-phase Ducted Central AC's
Due to bad Power conditions, initially the motors got burnt, LED Light's Electronic Ballast / Driver Fails (which is not supposed to happen)
so what ever I tried, it didn't make a change, computer, CCTV DVR's and other electronic devices faced a huge failure when a neutral was cut few years back.

I needed to take care of all these things, whatever might happen in the world it must not fail, due to the investment made on them.

it requires:
3 phases to be in correct sequence (1-Red,2-Yellow,3-Blue)
3 phases voltage difference should be in acceptable limits (15-20%)
3 phases voltage should be in correct range (each phase 180v-260v / phase to phase 380v-440v)
Frequency within limits.
Power on Time Delay
All 3 phases must be present at all times.

for this you might think it will cost a fortune, to prevent the devices from failing, BUT if it is OK for you to switch off the power to these equipment, when any thing happens , instead of providing a battery backup(could install a inverter to computers and DVR in the middle), you could install a industry-standard device:

GIC SM500 Voltage monitoring Relay(Analog, Cheap around 0.7-1k) (I'm using this one)
or
Rishab Digital Line Monitoring Relay(Digital, around 2.5k)

so along with this, and a pure sinewave inverter for computers and DVRs from MEDI, (robust, can withstand neutral failure as well, experienced personally(the display showed 355v...the neutral was floating!)) I can ensure that the equipment is safe all the time.

and you need additional relay [ contactor in electrical terms ] based on your load to switch on/off the power to the devices. which costs depending upon load carrying capacity.
Left : Meter for displaying various parameters, Right: GIC SM500 Voltage monitoring Relay
*s28.postimg.org/jv3mpgwb1/IMG_20151101_180056.jpg

the taped up portion
*gicindia.com/img/MG73BH.jpg

how a 32A AC3 rating Contactor looks(for AC)...for computers a 10A one is more than enough!
*s19.postimg.org/ypn11ngqa/IMG_20160108_151546.jpg

These things will fit in a standard DIN rail, that is in our MCB DB also.

Code:

                            |--> Inverter --> Computers, DVR's
So Mainline --> Contactor---|--> Devices(Air Con) 
          |            ^ 
          |            |
           -> Voltage Monitor

like this Voltage Montitor, we can also install a Earth Leakage Monitoring relay, etc. If any more info needed, reply!

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samthechamp said:
I didn't really undeestand what he meant by that.Should I use a surge protector with inverter?I have heard that's bad for both of them.And there are no technical specs of any inverter like sukam and luminous regarding any surge protection or "synchronization". Can you recommend any inverter which has these.?

[MENTION=105611]bssunilreddy[/MENTION] thanks for the suggestion.I am currently thinking to buy BAVK UPS PRO 1100VA ,it has better surge protection and design and some features.Can you please tell me if it will be possible to use exide or any third company batteries with the model in future if I want to replace them?I have seen posts about changing batteries of bck UPS but not back ups pro.

yes, the back ups pro battery can be replaced by exide / amaron ones, DIY

synchronization: this wont be specified by luminous or sukam because they don't have it...
it means when power cut occurs, instead of blindly switching the load to battery,
the inverter's micro processor will be constantly monitoring the sine wave output of the mains, note the point exactly at which the power cut occurs, and use the digital signal processor to give output to the load from the battery EXACTLY at that point onward,

I think you might not understand what I'm telling :silly_NF:

*s19.postimg.org/nvjd4y1rl/Capture.png

that's why these inverters delay from battery to main power when the main power returns, they wait for the sine waves to match.
the computer will not even know barely that it has been transferred to battery ( though the very very small delay )

W

[MENTION=138043]kARTechnology[/MENTION],very good post.Can you also post some indian online shopping site links to purchase inverters with "synchronization" feature?

whitestar_999 said:
[MENTION=138043]kARTechnology[/MENTION],very good post.Can you also post some indian online shopping site links to purchase inverters with "synchronization" feature?

I bought those inverters from eBay 2 years back[have 3 of them(2x2kva 24v and a 1kva 12v solar charger inbuilt, but haven't used solar still))]...still going strong, the company is NIXOWN, but the original motherboard OEM /Design is by MEDI ...This is the only Indian product that has not failed on me upto now.

the inverter comes with a 1/2/4 line lcd display with various parameters

there are many inverters in local market with this motherboard, but you need to search for the quality components and proper manufacturer. If you contact Nixown via phone I think they will definitely help to place an order by using eBay

Link to MEDI website
Sinewave Inverte

The system will consider the mains voltage as OK when the mains is within a specified range. In inverter mode the acceptable range is from 100V to 285V and in UPS mode this is from 180V to 265V. When the mains voltage cross this range the system will activate the inverter if the standby mode is ON (front panel switch is ON). The software is giving a hysterisis gap for the changeover voltages. For example in UPS mode if the mains voltage is dropped below 180V the system will changeover to inverter but the system will return to mains if the mains voltage rises above 190V. That is, there is a gap of 10V. This is for the stability of the changeover. For low voltage changeover the hysterisis gap is 10V and in high voltage changeover the gap is 5V. This is because high voltage changeover will get a natural hysterisis. In UPS mode the changeover to inverter will be fast and in synchronous with mains waveform. In inverter mode the changeover will be comparatively slow, but will be in synchronous with mains waveform. Slow starting of the system is done if the mains is already absent and the standby mode is switched on in the absence of mains.
Fast changeover considerations The mains-inverter and inverter-mains changeover will be in synchronous with the mains waveform. For correct synchronous changeover the polarity of the transformer connection should be correct. This is automatically done by the system whenever the inverter is turned on. If the polarity is OK the inverter work normally. If the polarity is not correct the buzzer beeps continuously. If it happens, switch off the inverter and reverse the primary connection of the transformer. In UPS mode the relay fastening voltage is very important for the fast changeover from mains inverter. This is connected through 2 pin connector CN3. Without this support there is a risk of computer ree-boot and rare chance for mosfet failure. Even when the front panel switch is off (standby off) the system will switch on the relay and will forcefully switch off the charger if the mains voltage is very high. This is for protecting the transformer and the MOSFETs from high voltages.

Inverter mode When the system is in standby mode the inverter will start if the mains is not in acceptable range. As stated above the smooth start will be done if the standby mode is switched on in the absence of mains. In inverter mode the system will be continuously checking the mains and if the mains is acceptable the system will try to synchronous the inverter waveform with mains. The inverter to mains changeover will happen only after the mains-inverter synchronization is correct.

W

Is it possible that those digital inverters with micro controller(from big companies like microtek,sukam,luminous) also have this "synchronization" feature even if not advertised(as it is too technical for avg users)?

whitestar_999 said:
Is it possible that those digital inverters with micro controller(from big companies like microtek,sukam,luminous) also have this "synchronization" feature even if not advertised(as it is too technical for avg users)?

microtek will not have it since they use maximum all analog, which is prone for repairs and made to be repaired.
luminous and sukam too...biggest sellers and crap quality, whines a lot, and vists to service center frequently when the power input is worse..

I had 2x PowerZen 800va few years back(2007-08 I think)....After a loong search and from their can't load slow website downloaded a pdf..It has synchronization
*s19.postimg.org/cm40pc8he/Capture.jpg

and it did fail when there was an electrical issue when for a split second the generator's output went into the inverter's output and the whole board fried.
Then it the board was replaced by a AMARON iACE board locally, which was simply perfect fit & the display connectors also matched with the board (they use the same board maybe!!!)

and the other powerzen after 5 years of hard work in harsh environemnt, the output current sensor(technically "current transformer") was faulty hence it was unable to power loads greater then 300va, so I used to power my laptop in car with this (pure sinewave for laptop charger in car!)

so I think the AMARON iACE inverters will have this synchronization feature, and the build quality is much better than competing brands.
this board in powerzen casing has been running in my house for last 3-4 years.No whines, absolutely silent except fan running sometimes.

similarly a Exide 800va LCD one, not even 1 year and its motherboard's "input power sensing component" went kaput(stays in battery mode forever!) and got whole board replaced under warranty last month due to the same reverse power from genset issue in another place. thinking of replacing with a MEDI unit and use Exide elsewhere

I go for UPS > Surge Protector > PC.