karnivore said:
Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.
If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.
I think you forgot that Britishers were there in our country practising "Divide and rule" of all forms. This again shows how much you shy from reading the distortions and misunderstanding I presented. Try to read atleast once.
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
karnivore said:
I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.
If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.
It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”.
And I told you a 1000 times that you are really bad at logic.
My example of policeman was to SHOWCASE how you are IGNORING the root cause of the problem. It seems you have made a habit to deliberately insert the cast factor. She could have been a dalit or a brahmin. She could have been rich or poor. You have assumed a lot of incorrect factors it seems that clouds your vision of the picture AS A WHOLE. We need to "eradicate" the the very cause, the very perception that becomes the "start" of the crime, so as to bring STRICT discipline so that the "start disappears". And so, ONCE again, you have NEGLECTED the root cause and telling us the definitions and consequences of the actions.
We want to stop the rape in general, and you are talking of the cast. She could have been a foreigner, a chinese, a black, an alien. Read the example again!
I told you to classify and differentiate between "actions and reactions, system and the external factors influencing that system". And hence once again you are flawed in your logic.
karnivore said:
Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.
And thats what I'm exactly saying. Instead of punishing the perpetrators or removing the "root cause", it is simply defining the line darker and discrminating against the merit i.e it is creating more problems and has become one of the factors of BRAIN DRAIN.
karnivore said:
That teacher was punished. Laws exist.
Only when media stepped in? Is the teacher punished everywhere where media is blind? Remember, law can only help when its boundaries are reached. If policeman is not registering the complaint, inspite of steps taken for dalit improvements, then what can one do? Shouldn't we be actively and strictly applying those laws? While a poor dalit or a poor man is "denied" of his right, the rich dalit or rich man can use police as a tool. It again shows how reservation IS NOT ERADICATING THE ROOT CAUSE and instead becomes a flawed system "in concept".
karnivore said:
Do you expect me to review an entire web page ? This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. In any case it is irrelevant.
Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system”
karnivore said:
Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?
May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.
Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.
If your ignorance and the vast amount of repetitions that has a terra firma on something distorted and misunderstood, then I believe it would be really wise "to review the entire web page". If you think it is irrelevant, then I think you are only trolling here. The line in bolds only shows that..
1. You are completely ignorant and the VARNA system
2. You are reluctant to read about the truth.
3. You like to "follow" from the reads of the ignorant critics only. I wonder if you dodged the enlightenment about Max Mueller, Griffith etc also.
karnivore said:
Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.
Treat him as a mythical character if you like. I have no qualms. But it seems you are a "firm believer" in the distorted cast system, as so obvious from your reluctance to know the truth about it.
karnivore said:
By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins. The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.)
And by kshatriyaism, I meant the same.
karnivore said:
Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?
The funny part is that you don't even understand the meaning of a brahmin. A Brahmin who distorts the scriptures for his own selfish agendas IS NOT A BRAHMIN BY KARMA.
First, No body knows "when" Vedas orginated. The scriptures tell that they were passed orally.
Second, Vedas are known to be compiled in "written form" around 5000 B.C.
Third, manusmriti is estimated to be composed near about 200 AD, Yajnavalkya Dharma Sutra in 350 AD, Mitaksara in 1100 AD, Parasar Smriti in 1300 AD and Dayabhag in 1500 AD.
Fourth, Vedas clearly talk of Varna system by karma. Go read the link. It has distortions clearly busted!!
Fifth, Manusmriti itself yields supremacy to Vedas and vedas overrides everything in it.
Sixth, The era of corrupt brahmins agrees with your statement i.e "
the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE", i.e the era when manusmriti was compiled.
Once again, you clarified that you know nothing about the distortions, mistranslatons and misundertsandings of the scriptures. Try to read the link, so as to save me and yourself and everyone else who is getting bored of reading the repetitions and the flawed theories ("by birth") which again give rise to "super flawed theories" (reservation).
karnivore said:
A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.
Funny, instead of improving your posts after admitting of your mistake of not reading the source itself, you are actually accusing me?
karnivore said:
I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society.
Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?
I know about the discriminations in other faiths and I understand your point. But it seems you don't realise that "how" these dalits are "availed" everything when their "economic status improves". The "root cause of the problem" and the "sense of perception and habit of looking down upon" remains the same "for other dalits", or I would like to say "other poor people". The scenario in Delhi completely busts your belief of "born into caste, always a caste". If Delhi can succeed, then so can the whole of India. It only shows how pessimistic you are, while I'm showing optimism and even stating the steps to deal with it.
And once again, your post clearly shouts HOW YOU ARE IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE which become irrespective of cast. A poor is discrminated irrespective of his/her cast, while the rich njoys the facilties and mocks the laws.
karnivore said:
You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.
Wrong again! All I'm saying is that the "awareness" hasn't reached the point, the point that I have been "championing" all along. Or did you forget that?
The "awareness" of science has not reached the "remote corners" of India where children are married to dogs and frogs and similarly the awareness or the truth of the varna system is invisible to the masses who most of the times "like to follow the corrupt pandits" and exhibit the "herd behaviour". It is this very "awarness" that I was talking to "inject" into NCERT and showcase by media.
karnivore said:
Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.
And again you proved how bad you are at logic.
A person BCD asks and "only asks", "How can science explain everything?" and CDE says, "You are saying Science can't explain everything". Understand your flaw?
All I said => if cast was a major factor and by birth was a part of "social discrmination", then "what stopped them from changing surnames"??? The next point is again about awareness!
karnivore said:
I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste. I have made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.
And thats why asked what a about a poor Non-OBC,non-SC/ST person who is "denied" a hospital admission, respect from police etc? Clearly, the "ideals" and "concepts" of economic and social backwardness mixed with reality has blinded and confused you. A socially backward "
tagged" person 'may or may not' be "socially discrminated". Whereas an economically backward person is "denied", "discrminated" and "treated inferior" most of the times.
karnivore said:
I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. If backward class is in majority, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.
Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.
As per NSSO 1999-2000 report, the percentage of population living under poverty level are:
ST – 46 in rural, 35 in urban
SC – 36 in rural, 38 in urban
OBC – 27 in rural, 29 in urban
Hindu Upper Class – 12 in rural, 9 in urban.
I guess its the banner of "below poverty level" that I was talking of that many brahmins and kshatriyas also do come under and aren't exclusive of it. Is reservation applicable to all of them? If no why such partiality? If yes, then again it shows how reservation is drawing the boundaries further, creating more and more categories, cast defined and then "certificate/tagged" defined IGNORING THEROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.
karnivore said:
Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.
If you don't have a valid point, then simply stop.
Firstly, For even a teenager knows how people from "all walks, all regions, all faiths etc" are entering Delhi like atleast 1000 per day for various reasons. They come and get dissolved in the chaos of the city. Those who discrminated, breath the air, get used to it, demolarise and stop discrminating and become part of the captial. Those who do are in turn looked down upon for their "discrminatory" behaviour and hence it becomes the first step in "eradication of the root cause". Here also, "most" of the times, a person is discrminated only when he is poor.
Delh is the crime capital of India too. A maid is not slapped or raped because she is a dalit. Police doesn't checks the complete family history before doing discrmination or taking goose instead of "challans". If you have political backing, police is at your knees. If you are rich, police behaviour is seen. If you are poor, police becomes a wolf. ALL of that => IRRESPECTIVE of cast i.e the factor of "cast" is almost null. But the "finance factor" is BIG and Real!!
Secondly, imagining and confusing "the spread of awareness, application of strict norms and laws in the society for the eradication of the root cause etc", with "physical removal of the backward class" agains states the bad logic arising from bad comprehension in your post. When did I exactly stated the "removal part" that you even imagined of it?
So once again, you add to the backlog of your flaws.
karnivore said:
You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.
First, my point was => Why should Delhities suffer from this is stupid reservation crap, if other areas face the problem? Why should delhities know about it? To play the games of "you are dalit, I'm brahim"?
Second, if Delhi shows better conditions, then so can other areas. Can we atleast try? "The historical account" that you stated is like a null argument as Delhities have a large portion of people from "UP" too, some from Rajasthan, ah well in general, people from all those areas
where "cast system" is visible in full glory.
karnivore said:
To quote Andre Beteille,
“Today, the Constitution of India provides a blueprint for an egalitarian society. The Constitution is not based on the premise of hierarchy, but on the premise of equality. But of course, you do not just erase or cancel out age-old inequalities simply by adopting new principles in a Constitution. So what else has to be done in order to reduce the inequalities of the past? This is what affirmative action or positive discrimination addresses itself to. The object is to reduce the level of inequality in a society which has had a hierarchical order over a very long period of time. Affirmative action or positive discrimination was not the only major programme adopted when the country became independent and created a Constitution based on the premise of equality. For example, there was a massive programme of agrarian reform which was also designed to give greater thrust to the pursuit of equality. I would say that these were the two main programmes – agrarian reform and affirmative action – designed to improve the conditions of what came to be known as the backward classes in Indian society.”
Mr Andre Beteille, is a vocal anti-quota activist. He, along with Sam Petroda, resigned from the Knowledge Committee in 2006, to protest against, govt’s decision to increase quota.
1. Political exploitation of cast
2. Exploitation of reservation system
3. Merit discrimination. (Should we get reservation "for" merit also" ?)
4. Removing some discrmination, by creating further discrmination and ignoring "root cause of the problem"?
Aren't you already ashamed?
article said:
The underlying theory is that the under-representation of the identifiable groups is a legacy of the Indian caste system. After India gained independence, the Constitution of India listed some erstwhile groups as Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST). The framers of the Constitution believed that, due to the caste system, SCs and the STs were historically oppressed and denied respect and equal opportunity in Indian society and were thus under-represented in nation-building activities. The Constitution laid down 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively for a period of five years, after which the situation was to be reviewed. This period was routinely extended by the following governments and the Indian Parliament, and no revisions were undertaken.
Later, reservations were introduced for other sections as well. The Supreme Court ruling that reservations cannot exceed 50% (which it judged would violate equal access guaranteed by the Constitution) has put a cap on reservations. However, there are state laws that exceed this 50% limit and these are under litigation in the Supreme Court. For example, the caste-based reservation fraction stands at 69% and is applicable to about 87% of the population in the state of Tamil Nadu (see section on Tamil Nadu below).
Source
Firstly, it is not necessary that all the anti-reservationists be speaking the same point. So if you think by quoting an anti-reservationist I'm gonna agree, then dream on. "Reason" and "Reason well"!! Logic and the let equality prevail.
Next, If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?? Do you understand the flawed reality??
So, Some talks of equality? Its a bad joke, nothing else!
karnivore said:
Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.
Read the post and the data above which shows how the contagious flu is spreading!
Tamil Nadu system has become like an exception. A competition is said to be working when the people fight on "equal terms". Even if "majority of people" fight on equal terms, then also it is competition, but not really in true sense. It becomes flawed. Since majority in the case of T.N is itself the privileged ones i.e greater than 60%,
the competition is between the priviledged ones. But again not a real competition. And hence I believe the situation in T.N is reverse, where upper class is "under privileged" and "has to work hard". And hence Tamil Nadu is actually "discrminating" in a far worse manner and IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY.
karnivore said:
So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.
Again a lapse on ur part! I never said "SC/St/OBC" is a myth. The statement => "
ALL SC/ST/OBC are backward classes", is wrong and is a myth!!
karnivore said:
What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom. Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)
What I'm stating is that "why a poor irrespective of cast is denied that right"? And why is it that the same poor, irrespective of cast, "when he becomes financially sound" is availed all his natural right ?
You speak of data, like some analyst disconnected from reality sitting in front of your cooler sipping iced tea, and demanding "data" all the time to judge reality. Rememer an american can never present the problem of an Indian village in the same way that a person from the same village can. American would need "data", while the villager "knows" the reality. And now I feel like you lied about your "little tours" in remote corners of India.
karnivore said:
And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right. Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.
It simply shows the flaw of reservation. But you don't see it. Right? If city experience does not corresponds to rural experience then why such a bullcrap is implemented in city? Further you did not answer my question!! here it is again...
mediator said:
And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then?
Care to answer?
I wonder why behind the mask of "justice", you are talking of injustice all the way amd ignoring the root cause of the problem. I hope you won't ask the meaning of the "Root cause" now.
karnivore said:
And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.
Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through? ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable. I guess you forgot how I started and you need to read back the entire debate.
karnivore said:
A. Reservation ensures that.
B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.
A. Agreed!
B. You are joking and discrminating against merit.
C. You finally understand!
karnivore said:
The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. A better college, due to reservation. In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.
Its quite common when a person wants a computer stream which he is getting in DCE but a mechanical stream in IIT, he goes to DCE to pursue his choice. He can do that "irrespective of his cast" and nobody denies him. In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"? And why are you assuming, the general class student gets private college? Have you taken it for granted that the general class student is financially sound? Have to taken it for granted that the dalit for "economically backward" and "socially discrminated"?
In the former, the merit is being practiced "normally" without any external factors affecting it. In latter, the reservation crap "act as an external factor" and affects the "merit" and discriminates against it. Both the cases are NOT THE SAME. First one, is "conceptually the key" for an institution to give the seats. Whereas the second one, is actually a mockery of that concept and affecting it, discrminating against it.
Likewise, the "concept" for filtering the students to admission level is also the number of "criterias" like 60% in boards. Is any institution "denying" the right to "entrance exam"??
Let me ask, did you enjoy reservation all your life that you are so ignorant on merit? Did you EVER face competition in studies to know the value of competition and merit?
karnivore said:
Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.
Reservation is "acting" on the first layer of admission, whereas the "past performance" in my statement is acting on the second layer, a layer when both "dalit and general class" possess the same score. The second layer, i.e during a tie, can also be based on the "age" i.e who is older. If financial help is given to the dalit, then he can perform better than general class one not only in the tie i.e past performance, or GDs, but even during the admission round.
AP: Village labourer cracks IIT entrance
article said:
With hard effort and single-minded devotion, you can make possible what seems impossible.
That is what an 18-year-old has shown in Khammam district of Andhra Pradesh. With not enough to eat, and no money even to burn the midnight oil, in a village with hardly nine hours daily power supply, the boy managed to secure 453rd rank in the IIT entrance exam. However, he has won only half the battle yet.
At Garikapadu village in Khammam district, the IIT entrance rank holder, Narasimha Rao, is a labour under the National Rural Employment Guarantee scheme.
With the daily wage of Rs 80, Narasimha wants to repay dues for borrowing books from a reference library. Even at work, his thoughts revolve around science.
"When I am working in the field also, I think of questions in physics. I just can't understand how these mobiles work? How the waves travel?" says Narasimha.
Narsimha's mother Lakshmi can't tell what exam her son has passed but the labourer parents say their son has made them proud.
"My boy said he would buy me a gas stove to cook after he gets a job. I know he is grown up now. My eyes burn when we burn wood," says Lakshmi.
Narsimha managed to get coaching in an IIT institute in nearby Vijaywada with the financial support by some elders in this village. Now the 18-year-old has to attend counselling at IIT Madras on June 18, for which he does not even have travel expenses.
"After I am settled in life, I promise to pay back the money. I will be so thankful," says Narasimha.
Calling my example as exception, you have proved once again how much you lied about your "little tours" and incapability to face the reality.
Now try to call all of these as exceptions too....
Bihar Village Churns Out 100 IIT toppers
Like I said, you are only fooling yourself.
karnivore said:
Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?
Higher casts? Does that mean all of the higher casts? Does that mean all of the dalits are affected. Does that mean every single higher cast is affecting every single dalit? If some higher casts are affecting some dalits or lets say plenty of dalits, then shouldn't that root cause of the problem be eradicated and action should be taken against that "some higher cast"?
This VIEW remains ABSOLUTELY ABSENT IN ALL OF YOUR POSTS, in terms of laws and awareness.
karnivore said:
You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores impedes completion at Harvard ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.
Once again you have shown that you are ignorant on merit. I would rather find my place in an institute that is built on the grounds of "competition", than "reservation". Even in many institutes the passing marks are diff. and relaxed for "reserved ones". So even the completion factor is non-adherent to the reality. and hence your logic is again flawed.
It again shows how merit has been affected by a perverted external factor like reservation.
karnivore said:
Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?
Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.
karnivore said:
Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.
If you stop talking of the reservation be it on economic backwardess or social backwardness, then other is bound to stop talking of the terminologies "connected" to it.
karnivore said:
Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ?
Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation".
karnivore said:
Do you think population of India is static that no new souls will be born into this world, in village, after the implementation of reservation and after some period of time say in decades all the problem will disappear?
1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
5. A system that is divorced from competition and denying a "holistic development" of a student, I guess, is really "not giving" him what is needed. Development of personality and speaking manners are a part of education.
6. More souls are born, and the "root cause of the problem" remains the same. Brahmins are pictured as monsters and hence society starts looking down upon them. Look at yourself alone, saying all of it started with "Brahminism". Have you ver wondered it might lead to a reverse situation, where Brahmin might be discrminated in future?
7. Again, what about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?
karnivore said:
I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.
First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.
karnivore said:
Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation. Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade
If the scope is to reduce inequality then why has reservation been increased?????????????????????? Why are Delhities made to suffer inequality under the banner of equality? The bold clearly tells, how useless is the reservation then. If the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM is not dealt with, then how we can we really stop the problem???
Do you even understand how "contadicting" and flawed your own statements are becoming? I believe we should continue this for over the next 2 months.
karnivore said:
As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.
It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.
The socially discrminated one gets facilties, and jobs. He gets "financially sound". Is he discriminated? Thus financial improvement removes his social backwardness. While his village "continues" to face the discrmination. More babies are born, who shall face that discrmination. And hence, the "root cause of the problem" i.e discrmination, remains IGNORED.
My idea, is to develop whole village, spread awarness and implement "strict" laws to reduce/eradicate discrmination. Unfortunately, you are not interested in any real justice , but only playing protagonist on the flawed system of reservation which leads to more and more discrimination and even saying that "Reservation is not about removing the root cause"??
Indians thought of a system to provide justice to the people who were discrminated on a "root cause". So our bright sages pointed towards reservation and to facilitate the so called backward people. And now you say, "Reservation is not about eradicating the root cause"?? Hilarious!
I seems you think that the very thought that invoked reservation was not about the "root cause". And hence you are flawed again.
karnivore said:
The point is "past performance" that you have been championing all along. I hope you understand, aptitude is different that mugging answers!! Some institutes admit people on the basis of "aptitude", while some "on who scored better in boards".
IITs are the ones, where you are tested on your aptitude and intelligence. And a person who is mugging most of the time in schools
may or may not do well in IITs. And hence your point of "past performace" is also flawed. It doesn't mean merit is flawed. Merit is not really past performance. I hope you know that. How one scored in IIT or an exam is merit. How well person did in past, is "past performance". Merit may become a part of past performance, while past performance is not really a subset of merit. It doesn't extrapolate to merit.
A how a student performed in nursery is irrelevant. But what relevant is the percentile he got in IIT/IIM to get admission into IIT/IIM. This is how IIT/IIMs "select students". BIMTECH has its own procedure. AFAIK, 10% weightage on CAT score, 30% on GD, 30% on PI etc.
I think you should take some competetive exams and know more about merit for it seems you are clueless of what merit actually means.
karnivore said:
And when are you going to sample the rural India ?
You are the one who is talking of data all the time, not me! You are the one who is oblivious to the stories of 100s of village children who cracked IIT, not me! So I think you should stop making sarcastic statements.
And once again, I can only request you to read the light on varna system, before repeating the same old ignorance. Talking of equality without cutting out the source of inequality? How absurd!
And yes do read, post after a month if it takes time. Its not even a read of 15 minutes though. Your own posts might be longer in comparison.
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
But, u r right, how about a reservation in laws too. First mark places as highly sensitive area for casteism (like they do for voting booths to prevent problems), then make it mandatory to show at least 5 FIRs from dalits.
.
)
, which would IMO make this also useless. 
