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The Encryption Debate Between WhatsApp And The Indian Government

48 posts · originally from https://geek.digit.in/community/threads/the-encryption-debate-between-whatsapp-and-the-indian-government.207143/

bssunilreddy
bssunilreddy Original post #1
Oct 26, 2019 at 3:57 PM
The Encryption Debate Between WhatsApp And The Indian Government

*i.imgur.com/AcCg4VF.png

The Government of India has been making headlines recently due to its ongoing debate regarding the need for social media platforms like WhatsApp to allow for the decryption of private messages on its network, citing national security requirements. Facebook gained ownership of WhatsApp in early 2014 further expanding its social media empire. WhatsApp, which has over 400 million users in India allows for the exchange of text messages, photos, videos, audio files and documents in multiple formats among various other features.

Using end to end encryption, data exchanged on WhatsApp is beyond the reach of third parties and WhatsApp themselves. This ensures maximum privacy on the users’ end allowing for the intended recipient of the messages to be the only party with the ability to decrypt the said message. Attorney General K.K. Venugopal told the Supreme Court that it was the responsibility of social media companies to share data wherever there was a potential threat to national security. In the interest of national security, he stated “A terrorist cannot claim privacy. For Facebook and WhatsApp to say they cannot decrypt is not acceptable.”

*i.imgur.com/DyMxgZa.png

The government stated in an affidavit that it planned to formulate new rules regarding its hold on social media “keeping in view the ever-growing threats to individual rights and nation’s integrity, sovereignty, and security.” “They can’t come into the country and say we will establish a non-decryptable system,” Attorney General Venugopal said.

This decision has sparked much debate regarding its expectations from the social media platforms in question and with respect to the general right to privacy. Facebook’s lawyer Mukul Rohtagi told the court that the company was not obliged to share users’ data with the Indian government. The case was brought to the Supreme Court when Facebook allegedly asked the top court to hear all cases concerning privacy and curbs on social media usage. WhatsApp has been actively working on preventing misuse after it was accused of disseminating untrustworthy information. Having said that, it does not plan on scrapping end to end encryption.

*i.imgur.com/kJbVKiv.png

Rohtagi stated that local laws do not demand companies to share data with government agencies nor do they mention the need for a decryption system provided by the said companies. A representative of the government affirmed that there was no intention to invade into the personal lives of citizens and that India merely wanted to guard its people against potential threats.

Judge Deepak Gupta however, disagreed with the proposed necessity for decryption questioning the need for social media platforms to have a decryption system when it is well within their rights not to have one. He also mentioned how the law allows the government to seek help to decrypt. “Nobody prevents you from having your own system of decryption,” Gupta said.

Further Reading:

  • Facebook faces another major data breach, millions of passwords exposed to employees
  • Facebook Messenger Adds HD Videos & 360° Photos Support
Source:The Encryption Debate Between WhatsApp And The Indian Government
sling-shot
Oct 26, 2019 at 7:57 PM
What does it mean that the law allows the government to have its own system of decryption?
W
Oct 26, 2019 at 10:31 PM
What does it mean that the law allows the government to have its own system of decryption?
It means govt is free to use its own resources to break whatsapp encryption,just like FBI did in US to crack iphone of a terrorist by paying money to a 3rd party.
*www.engadget.com/2017/05/08/fbi-paid-900000-to-unlock-san-bernardino-iphone/
bssunilreddy
Oct 26, 2019 at 10:33 PM
What does it mean that the law allows the government to have its own system of decryption?
Yes already the present regime said in March I think that they are snooping on 1.35 billion Indians as regards to National Security.
And I support them. Jai Hind.

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bssunilreddy
Oct 26, 2019 at 10:35 PM
It means govt is free to use its own resources to break whatsapp encryption,just like FBI did in US to crack iphone of a terrorist by paying money to a 3rd party.
*www.engadget.com/2017/05/08/fbi-paid-900000-to-unlock-san-bernardino-iphone/
Yes, absolutely in matters of National Security
Govt should have the final say.

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sling-shot
Oct 26, 2019 at 10:49 PM
National security is probably the most misused excuse in modern world.
bssunilreddy
Oct 26, 2019 at 11:01 PM
National security is probably the most misused excuse in modern world.
No it's not an excuse
It's the faith & belief in the leaders who lead us into the future.
In the leaders who will provide our children a better life.

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omega44-xt
Oct 27, 2019 at 12:11 PM
No it's not an excuse
It's the faith & belief in the leaders who lead us into the future.
In the leaders who will provide our children a better life.

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With the mindset of Indians, its better to not be a surveillance state. At the end, its the people who will be implementing it & we all know, corruption is embedded in a lot of Indians, so better to not give them such power.
W
Oct 27, 2019 at 12:33 PM
No it's not an excuse
It's the faith & belief in the leaders who lead us into the future.
In the leaders who will provide our children a better life.
Having blind faith & belief is also not good.
B
Oct 27, 2019 at 4:58 PM
Yes already the present regime said in March I think that they are snooping on 1.35 billion Indians as regards to National Security.
And I support them. Jai Hind.

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Supporting them for National security is great but bjp took support of gopal kanda in haryana to form a government and the party that gave them support, its head's father got bail from tihar jail. Now implement this to nation wide elections. What will be the impact if bjp has access to messages/mails of say any opposition leader?
Wah Modiji Wah.
W
Oct 27, 2019 at 5:09 PM
Supporting them for National security is great but bjp took support of gopal kanda in haryana to form a government and the party that gave them support, its head's father got bail from tihar jail. Now implement this to nation wide elections. What will be the impact if bjp has access to messages/mails of say any opposition leader?
Wah Modiji Wah.
A bit late BJP will not take Gopal Kanda's support in Haryana: Ravi Shankar Prasad | India News - Times of India
Btw all parties top leaders are involved in one or other case & many of them have been to jail.
skeletor
skeletor #12
Oct 28, 2019 at 12:50 AM
No it's not an excuse
It's the faith & belief in the leaders who lead us into the future.
In the leaders who will provide our children a better life.
Nah, Indian politicians aren't trustworthy.
bssunilreddy
Oct 28, 2019 at 12:55 AM
Nah, Indian politicians aren't trustworthy.
I don't think of like this of the present regime.
They are doing amends to what Kongress did long back.

Northeast got its direct railway & road link.
Still it's us the southerners who didn't get much.
But I hope Modiji will do something for AP.

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bssunilreddy
Oct 28, 2019 at 1:54 AM
Govt names the 10 agencies with powers to snoop on you
omega44-xt
Oct 28, 2019 at 8:58 AM
I don't think of like this of the present regime.
They are doing amends to what Kongress did long back.

Northeast got its direct railway & road link.
Still it's us the southerners who didn't get much.
But I hope Modiji will do something for AP.

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Do you realize that Southern India developed a lot in the same time that states like Bihar, JH, WB & NE didn't? South had better electricity reach & road facility to villages, even railways before Modi. After comparing Kerala & WB, I'd say Kerala is doing much better in basic amenities, same can be said about TN, KA, TN & TS IMO from what I know. Except Kolkata, WB has no other major city, whereas, except Trivandrum & Kochi, Kerala has other big cities that are bigger & better than those of WB, like Durgapur, even if not famous.
bssunilreddy
Oct 28, 2019 at 9:09 AM
Do you realize that Southern India developed a lot in the same time that states like Bihar, JH, WB & NE didn't? South had better electricity reach & road facility to villages, even railways before Modi. After comparing Kerala & WB, I'd say Kerala is doing much better in basic amenities, same can be said about TN, KA, TN & TS IMO from what I know. Except Kolkata, WB has no other major city, whereas, except Trivandrum & Kochi, Kerala has other big cities that are bigger & better than those of WB, like Durgapur, even if not famous.
South is better but separation of AP from Telangana did a great discomfort because almost every PSU is located in & around Hyderabad only.
We were promised Railway Zone and Cargo terminal but it is yet to see light of the day.
NE got its direct rail link & road link in 2014 & 2016 repectively. And its because of Modiji.
pkkumarcool
Oct 28, 2019 at 9:44 AM
Maybe government is not trusted but do you think facebook is trusted? I dont think so.The message data is stored by 3rd party(facebook) in decypher form form but it can be decrepted.


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bssunilreddy
Oct 28, 2019 at 9:51 AM
Maybe government is not trusted but do you think facebook is trusted? I dont think so.The message data is stored by 3rd party(facebook) in decypher form form but it can be decrepted.
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Everything can be seen by even local state walas let alone IB & Home.
The home has the source code of every social networking, mail etc
It has been monitoring since 10 years but BJP revealed it last March before the elections.
NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others
W
Oct 28, 2019 at 8:41 PM
Everything can be seen by even local state walas let alone IB & Home.
The home has the source code of every social networking, mail etc
It has been monitoring since 10 years but BJP revealed it last March before the elections.
NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others
Comparing India's state surveillance to USA's Prism is like comparing maruti 800 to ferrari,India has one of the weakest cyber warfare capabilities among major nations.
skeletor
skeletor #20
Oct 29, 2019 at 9:39 AM
I don't think of like this of the present regime.
They are doing amends to what Kongress did long back.

Northeast got its direct railway & road link.
Still it's us the southerners who didn't get much.
But I hope Modiji will do something for AP.

Modiji and BJP = idiots.
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 9:43 AM
Modiji and BJP = idiots.
Come on man. Don't be so rude.
NE was pleasantly avoided by Kongress.
Modiji did it for them.
Direct Rail & Road network.
Porkistan can only moan when Article 370 was removed.
Modiji unified everybody in the fight against terrorism.
Now nobody stands with Porkistan, not even China.

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TheSloth
TheSloth #22
Oct 29, 2019 at 10:19 AM
I don't understand. Have you been believing literally everything they show on news channels? Everything you see on media channels is to fool mass.
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 10:54 AM
I don't understand. Have you been believing literally everything they show on news channels? Everything you see on media channels is to fool mass.
I don't know man. I believe what I read.
That's all.

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skeletor
skeletor #24
Oct 29, 2019 at 11:47 AM
Come on man. Don't be so rude.
NE was pleasantly avoided by Kongress.
Modiji did it for them.
Direct Rail & Road network.
Porkistan can only moan when Article 370 was removed.
Modiji unified everybody in the fight against terrorism.
Now nobody stands with Porkistan, not even China.
Everybody has been united in the fight against terrorism already. Since day #1.

Nothing new there. Sure, may be removal Article 370 is good, but cutting off connectivity isn't.

We have got people from North East here. They can comment better on what the Central Govt has done.
Desmond
Desmond #25
Oct 29, 2019 at 12:19 PM
Comparing India's state surveillance to USA's Prism is like comparing maruti 800 to ferrari,India has one of the weakest cyber warfare capabilities among major nations.
On top of that they want to simplify surveillance by mandating weaker encryption.
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 3:56 PM
Everybody has been united in the fight against terrorism already. Since day #1.

Nothing new there. Sure, may be removal Article 370 is good, but cutting off connectivity isn't.

We have got people from North East here. They can comment better on what the Central Govt has done.
US opened its eyes in 2001 , We in 2008
And the source of evil is just accross the border.
Who is the cause for Syrian Conflict?
Connectivity is not the issue here, returning to normalcy is the issue and it will happen when those in J&K enjoy like us every opportunity.
Then no more stone throwing on our armed forces for a mere Rs.500 and no encounters.

This is the 1st step towards what we want to see.

So let's hope it happens soon.

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W
Oct 29, 2019 at 4:03 PM
US opened its eyes in 2001 , We in 2008
US eyes are still half closed(many of their recent foreign policy decisions) & our eyes are of those who dream with eyes open(India now biggest importer of arms & its economy is suffering because of lack of needed reforms).
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 4:12 PM
US eyes are still half closed(many of their recent foreign policy decisions) & our eyes are of those who dream with eyes open(India now biggest importer of arms & its economy is suffering because of lack of needed reforms).
We are not importing arms
In fact we are making here in India itself

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W
Oct 29, 2019 at 5:24 PM
We are not importing arms
In fact we are making here in India itself

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:facepalm:
India world's largest importer of major arms in the last four years

India is world’s second-largest arms importer
It cedes top spot to Saudi Arabia owing to 24% decrease between 2009-13 and 2014-18, partly due to delays in weapons delivery
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM
:facepalm:
India world's largest importer of major arms in the last four years

India is world’s second-largest arms importer
Make in India: Tata, Mahindra and Larsen & Toubro in race to partner gunmaker BAE for howitzers

Similarly Reliance Defence is making some armaments.

Check Jane's Weekly once.

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W
Oct 29, 2019 at 5:38 PM
Make in India: Tata, Mahindra and Larsen & Toubro in race to partner gunmaker BAE for howitzers

Similarly Reliance Defence is making some armaments.

Check Jane's Weekly once.

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What exactly you didn't understand? Fact is that India is one of the largest arms importer(usually in top 3) in the world for many years now & will remain to do so for many more years to come.Whatever news/links you are reading/quoting is just a small fraction of India's total defense arms requirements which won't make any significant changes.
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 5:40 PM
What exactly you didn't understand? Fact is that India is one of the largest arms importer(usually in top 3) in the world for many years now & will remain to do so for many more years to come.Whatever news/links you are reading/quoting is just a small fraction of India's total defense arms requirements which won't make any significant changes.
What I am trying to say is that 1st batch will be delivered by the exporter afterwards we make ourselves here.
Our private enterprises.
Make in India concept...

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W
Oct 29, 2019 at 5:59 PM
What I am trying to say is that 1st batch will be delivered by the exporter afterwards we make ourselves here.
Our private enterprises.
Make in India concept...

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You don't seem to understand how arms manufacturing works,"delivery of 1st batch" will take years & then "making of subsequent batches in India" will again take years & India will be buying arms in all those years to replace its ageing weapons.Also "make in India" is not possible for all deals & it is also not as simple because "make in India" does not mean that entire technology to create arms will be transferred along with spare parts. Unless India develops weapons technology of its own,it will remain dependent on arms import.
chimera201
Oct 29, 2019 at 6:14 PM
@bssunilreddy Made in India basically means assembled in India. All the chips/parts are still imported.

But we do have one original weapon ... Indian scam call centres :lol:
Desmond
Desmond #35
Oct 29, 2019 at 8:16 PM
Indian scam call centres
That's also second to Nigerian scammers. XD
But seriously, many of these Indian scam call centers are actually run by westerners who hire contractors to hire guys to make these calls to scam Americans. The callers are usually the unemployed who are willing to take on any job.
bssunilreddy
Oct 29, 2019 at 8:19 PM
That's also second to Nigerian scammers. XD
But seriously, many of these Indian scam call centers are actually run by westerners who hire contractors to hire guys to make these calls to scam Americans. The callers are usually the unemployed who are willing to take on any job.
Then there are guys who give projects page wise after completion they say there are so many wrongs but it takes a whole 30 days to complete.
In the end nothing is paid.

I did one or two like above and got scammed.

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skeletor
skeletor #37
Oct 29, 2019 at 11:00 PM
US opened its eyes in 2001 , We in 2008
And the source of evil is just accross the border.
Who is the cause for Syrian Conflict?
Connectivity is not the issue here, returning to normalcy is the issue and it will happen when those in J&K enjoy like us every opportunity.
Then no more stone throwing on our armed forces for a mere Rs.500 and no encounters.

This is the 1st step towards what we want to see.

So let's hope it happens soon.
Isn't removing Article 370 the actual return to normalcy? What more is needed? Everything is apparently good there.

Also, who is the cause for Syrian Conflict?
bssunilreddy
Oct 30, 2019 at 5:47 AM
Isn't removing Article 370 the actual return to normalcy? What more is needed? Everything is apparently good there.

Also, who is the cause for Syrian Conflict?
Syrian Civil War Fast Facts - CNN
Removal of Article 370 is a step towards development showing to the world that everybody is equal in the eyes of the law & everybody can enjoy the fruits of this democratic system.

Next step would be setting up of industries either in J&K or bringing them out of that well and make them realise that there is a lot to grow up and enjoy rather thinking that land is an island.

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Desmond
Desmond #39
Oct 30, 2019 at 3:57 PM
Saw this on reddit - Why India wants to track WhatsApp messages

Comments - Why India wants to track WhatsApp messages
bssunilreddy
Oct 30, 2019 at 4:03 PM
Saw this on reddit - Why India wants to track WhatsApp messages

Comments - Why India wants to track WhatsApp messages
The Home Ministry is tracking every site as we speak from a long time.
National Security is needed and citizens privacy can be overlooked.
This is what I think.

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W
Oct 30, 2019 at 5:14 PM
The Home Ministry is tracking every site as we speak from a long time.
National Security is needed and citizens privacy can be overlooked.
This is what I think.

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No amount of online tracking will improve India's security agencies effectiveness(take CBI for example) without fundamental improvements.
Desmond
Desmond #42
Oct 30, 2019 at 7:49 PM
The Home Ministry is tracking every site as we speak from a long time.
National Security is needed and citizens privacy can be overlooked.
This is what I think.

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This is a very dangerous attitude. Mass surveillance is a double edged sword, it can be used to capture criminals but in the wrong hands (authoritarian govts, autocrats), it can also be used to spy on and harass innocent citizens (like how China is doing). Therefore, how this surveillance is used must be tightly monitored, public must be made aware of it and mechanisms must be put into place to ensure accountability in case of wrongful use. Giving the govt. free reign in this case is a disaster for everyone, not just the criminals and terrorists who they claim to protect us from.
bssunilreddy
Nov 8, 2019 at 6:27 PM
Facebook Adds Catalogs to WhatsApp - Another Feature to Milk the App's 1.5 Billion Users
Vyom
Vyom #44
Nov 11, 2019 at 9:07 AM
Facebook Adds Catalogs to WhatsApp - Another Feature to Milk the App's 1.5 Billion Users
Read the article. Didn't get exactly how it will work though.
So will we the consumers will get promotional messages through Whatsapp (from business users using WhatsApp business) and we can directly purchase things from within whatsapp?
If yes, then the business whatsapp users would need to have our whatsapp numbers and we could block them if we want to? Does this come under DND protection? So many questions.
bssunilreddy
Nov 11, 2019 at 9:10 AM
Read the article. Didn't get exactly how it will work though.
So will we the consumers will get promotional messages through Whatsapp (from business users using WhatsApp business) and we can directly purchase things from within whatsapp?
If yes, then the business whatsapp users would need to have our whatsapp numbers and we could block them if we want to? Does this come under DND protection? So many questions.
It's just like this
For the sake of National security some liberties can be forgotten like citizens privacy because we cannot guarantee safety on the demographic basis.
So some liberties can be forgotten.
This is my opinion.

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TheSloth
TheSloth #46
Nov 11, 2019 at 9:51 AM
The problem is, as much as the govt is corrupted right now in many third world countries, not a single person aware of right to privacy would compromise their right with their govt. As soon as this gets implemented, people's data will be handed out to third party for analysis so that powerful people know how to manipulate the population and keep their power for long time. Obviously this might also be used to find out how many people wants to change the current govt and keep close eye on them to monitor all the activities and eventually nab them for crimes they didn't even commit. These things are already happening in China and other parts of the world. I posted a link here from Reddit about this same topic, I am unable to find right now.
W
Nov 11, 2019 at 11:54 AM
It's just like this
For the sake of National security some liberties can be forgotten like citizens privacy because we cannot guarantee safety on the demographic basis.
So some liberties can be forgotten.
This is my opinion.

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You sound like a dictatorship cheerleader.:lol: You would score very high in Chinese communist party opinion because they also think just like you & believe that every chinese citizen should be under some form of monitoring.National security is indeed important but citizens privacy can not be completely sacrificed for it because that would mean the govt is no longer democratic in nature. Let the govt monitor communication of suspected anti-nationals but only after getting court approval & with enough evidence(& not like the one which would be rejected by high courts/supreme court as not enough) & I have no issue but I don't support govt monitoring people because they said something bad/funny about major political leaders/ministers & some police officer "thinks this is anti-national".
topgear
topgear #48
Nov 16, 2019 at 8:42 AM
It's just like this
For the sake of National security some liberties can be forgotten like citizens privacy because we cannot guarantee safety on the demographic basis.
So some liberties can be forgotten.
This is my opinion.

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Security Security Security - Govt. monitoring may get you rid of any possible terrorist attack but what if some where down the line it becomes one - now think of the greatest North Korean Leader :D