The Worst Thing about Macs

Another excellant article. No doubt Macs are a work of excellant technology, but there are even others things that do matter.

Here is an article from a Mac user since the Apple II. As is agreed everywhere, even he pays due credit to the Apple platform and performance. But the worst thing about macs, he says is the Apple Fans.

I opted not to post the article here, but here are the points he touches in his articles.

1. "Whatever MS does is a copy of others and MS simply buys others."
Dashboard is a rip of Konfabulator, Spaces a copy previous Virtual Deskop features, Cover Flow was actually purchased from a 3rd party developer, the iPhone ads are a blatant rips of a film "Telephones", Apple was issues cease and detist orders to stop an iPod ad because it was similar to an Eminem ad.

2. Whoever even tries to compete with Apple is greeted with the response "Why do they Even try".

3. What Apple does something, it is OK, but if MS does the same thing, the courts should take it down. What apple ads to OS X adds value to it, but when MS bundles its software its time for AntiTrust.

A sure read for all of you.

Source -
Part I
Part II

Onida : Nothing but the truth...

Woops, I mean Article: Nothing but the truth

N

completely agree with point 3.

infact i remember it bcame so bad that at a point when Apple guys complained abt MS copying their features, some MS employee said that Apple might know how to make good things but MS knows how to make money out of it and thaz the whole point .

nice read

thx for sharing

100% True.

@gx- lol

where is the salesman .... when the truth is mentioned the salesman doesnt reply :lol:

S

Those are real facts. Thanks.

But what's this doing under Tech News? Its just a view of the user after all and not news ..

QwertyManiac said:
But what's this doing under Tech News? Its just a view of the user after all and not news ..

Hey ya, i did not think about it. It should either be moved to Chit Chat or Random News.

Mods please move the topic.

Apple is not bad, they just make crappy Software backend....& when they fail to make one, they steal from OSS

Nice read there.

alsiladka said:
1. "Whatever MS does is a copy of others and MS simply buys others."
Dashboard is a rip of Konfabulator, Spaces a copy previous Virtual Deskop features, Cover Flow was actually purchased from a 3rd party developer, the iPhone ads are a blatant rips of a film "Telephones", Apple was issues cease and detist orders to stop an iPod ad because it was similar to an Eminem ad.

Completely agree with this. People employ double standards when it comes to Apple and MS.

alsiladka said:
2. Whoever even tries to compete with Apple is greeted with the response "Why do they Even try".

Agree with this arrgant attitude too. Its wrong to undermine anything and everything!

alsiladka said:
3. What Apple does something, it is OK, but if MS does the same thing, the courts should take it down. What apple ads to OS X adds value to it, but when MS bundles its software its time for AntiTrust.

Do not agree with this as the market situation is different in both the cases. Apple never allowed 3rd party companies to enter the market, or allowed only a few very few. So if apple bundles a new software it won't hit other companies.

But in cases where MS has done that the motive has been to kill competition and hence wipe out the company itself. If MS had held the right over certain category of software since a long time then bundling them wouldn't haf caused any problems. It should've foreseen that it'll venture into specific categories (like media players, browsers, JVM etc.) and made sure that other companies don't start making a living outta such software. After everything said and done, its wrong to kill competition this way. Except the media player category m mostly all other bundled software is inferior to the comptitive products and aimed at killing it ruthlessly.

infra_red_dude said:
But in cases where MS has done that the motive has been to kill competition and hence wipe out the company itself. If MS had held the right over certain category of software since a long time then bundling them wouldn't haf caused any problems. It should've foreseen that it'll venture into specific categories (like media players, browsers, JVM etc.) and made sure that other companies don't start making a living outta such software. After everything said and done, its wrong to kill competition this way. Except the media player category m mostly all other bundled software is inferior to the comptitive products and aimed at killing it ruthlessly.

In case they do not provide Media Player, Browser then I guess people out there will say- "Hey Man! MS doesn't even provide ya media players & internet browser. See I told ya MS sucks & Apple/Linux rocks"

C'mon man people can choose third party application for media playing, browsing. They still do. Who doesn't want to kill/defeat the competition?

3. What Apple does something, it is OK, but if MS does the same thing, the courts should take it down. What apple ads to OS X adds value to it, but when MS bundles its software its time for AntiTrust.

I agree to this and all other points.

@narangz

Bundling and unbundling ...

Please have a look

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68457

and

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69224

^^ thats not the point ... if i make 2 products which work together i hav the right to sell em as a package ... IE is an internet explrer .... media player is used for playing songs and watching movies .... i get my self a new os shudnt it do as is why the hell do i hav to go for alternatives or dwnld it from the net .... i like IE and wmp so if i buy windows y shudnt it be there and y am i being forced to look for alternatives .... and for God's sakes its business not ethics .... kill ur comptetion or die

now shoe lace makers wont in their sane minds sue nike for giving shoe lace with their shoes .... its the same thing ... an OS is incomplete without internet browser or a media player .... now have u forgotten google suing MS for making live search as the default search engine in IE .... did MS sue google for putting blogger as the default blog in picasa ....

iMav said:
^^ thats not the point ... if i make 2 products which work together i hav the right to sell em as a package ... IE is an internet explrer .... media player is used for playing songs and watching movies .... i get my self a new os shudnt it do as is why the hell do i hav to go for alternatives or dwnld it from the net .... i like IE and wmp so if i buy windows y shudnt it be there and y am i being forced to look for alternatives .... and for God's sakes its business not ethics .... kill ur comptetion or die

I don't like IE. So do I haf the option of NOT installing it in first place? Or can I COMPLETELY remove it afterwards (note the captilaized word there!). NO I can't! This is where the problem lies.

Kill competition but with better products!

iMav said:
now shoe lace makers wont in their sane minds sue nike for giving shoe lace with their shoes .... its the same thing ... an OS is incomplete without internet browser or a media player .... now have u forgotten google suing MS for making live search as the default search engine in IE .... did MS sue google for putting blogger as the default blog in picasa ....

There is no comparison with shoes, laces and OS, media players/browser. Use some logic when comparing things.

Can you wear a shoe without a lace (Not the non-laced models)? NO. Can you run an OS without a browser/media player? YES. Period!

I agree to other points as far as double standards are concerned. Its not correct to point fingers at MS for everything. But there are somethings where they are at fault.

infra_red_dude said:
So do I haf the option of NOT installing it in first place? Or can I COMPLETELY remove it afterwards (note the captilaized word there!). NO I can't! This is where the problem lies.

An OS needs a web browser as an add on application. Why don't u go & sue Apple & Various Linux distribution because they also install Safari & Firefox by default whether u want it or not. In Mac OS X, u do no get an option during installation for not installing Safari. During the install of Ubuntu you also do not get option to select which packages to install & which to not so that u can remove Firefox from installing.

After u have installed the OS u can remove the browser in favor of any other browser u use, but here is the thing. The OS requires a HTML engine for many things, Mac OS X comes with the Webkit engine deeply integrated in Mac OS X due to which even if u remove safari, the webkit engine is still there. Same goes with Windows, you can uninstall IE 7 from Vista & IE 7 software will be uninstalled but the Trident engine that IE 7 used will still be there because the OS needs it. KDE comes with KHTML Engine & for that the software is Konqurer, again you can remove the browser but not the HTML Engine in any OS out there. Trust me, you cannot remove an HTML engine from even Linux. Unless its CLI only Linux.

You can very well remove the IE 7 software from Windows Vista if u don't need it. Tell me a GUI OS out there which can work without a HTML engine. This isn't Microsoft's fault that customer ask for better out of the box experience & when MS provides that in form of IE 7 & WMP 11 they get sued.

Kill competition but with better products!

Safari software works better then Firefox software on Mac

IE 7 Software works much better then Firefox on Windows.

Both open web pages fine, both are enough for good out of the box experience after which the user can install whatever they want. What is the problem here, I fail to understand.

There is no comparison with shoes, laces and OS, media players/browser. Use some logic when comparing things.

Yes there is. Both are products from a company & laces are also made by many other companies which are addon to the real product (Shoe)

Can you run an OS without a browser/media player? YES. Period!

Sure u can, but can u run a GUI OS without an HTML engine & Media Playback engine? Now don't tell me the CLI Linux thing...thats not GUI.

gx_saurav said:
An OS needs a web browser as an add on application. Why don't u go & sue Apple & Various Linux distribution because they also install Safari & Firefox by default whether u want it or not. In Mac OS X, u do no get an option during installation for not installing Safari. During the install of Ubuntu you also do not get option to select which packages to install & which to not so that u can remove Firefox from installing.

I've already made it clear that Apple hasn't allowed much of 3rd party developers from a long time unlike the PC platform.

gx_saurav said:
After u have installed the OS u can remove the browser in favor of any other browser u use, but here is the thing. The OS requires a HTML engine for many things, Mac OS X comes with the Webkit engine deeply integrated in Mac OS X due to which even if u remove safari, the webkit engine is still there. Same goes with Windows, you can uninstall IE 7 from Vista & IE 7 software will be uninstalled but the Trident engine that IE 7 used will still be there because the OS needs it. KDE comes with KHTML Engine & for that the software is Konqurer, again you can remove the browser but not the HTML Engine in any OS out there. Trust me, you cannot remove an HTML engine from even Linux. Unless its CLI only Linux.

There is no tagging of html engine and the GNOME DE. I can use or remove any browser I want, completely at any point of the time. In this respect Mac OS is the least tolerant. Prolly coz not many alternatives exist.

gx_saurav said:
This isn't Microsoft's fault that customer ask for better out of the box experience & when MS provides that in form of IE 7 & WMP 11 they get sued.

Certainly not for me and many many others!!!

gx_saurav said:
Safari software works better then Firefox software on Mac.

Exactly, they've killed competition with a better product. And the competition wasn't even a threat to them!

gx_saurav said:
IE 7 Software works much better then Firefox on Windows.

Both open web pages fine, both are enough for good out of the box experience after which the user can install whatever they want. What is the problem here, I fail to understand.

The Rendering speed, the out of box security etc. etc. Plz consider Opera in the discussion too.

gx_saurav said:
Yes there is. Both are products from a company & laces are also made by many other companies which are addon to the real product (Shoe)

This is a completely illogical comparsion. I won't say anything else. A lace is an integral part of a shoe. A browser and a media player are application software NOT system software. Hope you understand the difference.

gx_saurav said:
Sure u can, but can u run a GUI OS without an HTML engine & Media Playback engine? Now don't tell me the CLI Linux thing...thats not GUI.

Excatly, this is the key strategy here. Tag the HTML engine with the browser and the multimedia engine with the media player so that neither is completely uninstallable!!! I don't haf any qualms about Media Player. Its a very mature and worthy product.

infra how many users know of firefox how many users give a damn about which browser they are using as long as its browsing the bloody net ... and y do u wnat to COMPLETELY remove it leave it there and install which ever browser u want to that is not the problem u know that as well as i do ....

opera might be good u might like it but most of my frenz dont care they want to chk mail surf a lil porn and IE 7 does a solid job on vista

and its not like windows doesnt allow u to install opera or set it as ur default browser

the example was apt and u too understood what i was trying to imply as u cant have shoes without laces (laced 1s) u cant have an OS without a browser and media player if u like a media player more thn the 1 bundled or ulike a browser more than the 1 bundled install and use who is stopping u u can set it as ur default browser then y the un-necessary fus abt it

infra_red_dude said:
I've already made it clear that Apple hasn't allowed much of 3rd party developers from a long time unlike the PC platform.

Really, I doubt that judging by the sheer number of applications for Mac OS X & arya's reply.

There is no tagging of html engine and the GNOME DE. I can use or remove any browser I want, completely at any point of the time.

Wait, if you can see a HTML Help file, (*.chm) then there is a HTML engine still there in Gnome DE (example)

In this respect Mac OS is the least tolerant. Prolly coz not many alternatives exist.

I don't like Quicktime, can I uninstall it in Mac OS X, sure I can, but then the software will be uninstalled but engine will still be there. If I remove the quicktime engine, Mac OS X will seaize to work properly.

Certainly not for me and many many others!!!

Fine, u do have the option to install anything else u want. I don't like Firefox in Ubuntu, where is my option to install Opera during the installation of Ubuntu & not Firefox?

Exactly, they've killed competition with a better product. And the competition wasn't even a threat to them!

Lolz...Safari better then firefox, u must be joking right :))

The Rendering speed, the out of box security etc. etc. Plz consider Opera in the discussion too.

I was comparing IE 7 software only, thats why i mentioned it clearly.

While making examples, please make something sensible. Basically examples are for people like me (non geeks) to understand things easily. Do not make examples for teh sake of making it lol.

Comparing Windows with shoe and shoe lace is really funny and nice but they are no way comparable.

Consider the threads I mentioned. Car and stereo. A car can run without a stereo, no problem at all. Tomo if Maruti forces the user to buy some crappy stereo of their own (made by maruti -lol) thats not a good business practise.

Now if the media player or browser is a part of OS and they can't be removed - OK, agreed. Basically there will not be any need of the interface, am I right ? I mean the basic engine (whetever it is called) may be needed but not the browser as such and not the media player as such. Just like MS deliver Win without media player (yes they do even before the proposal) in EU, they can do it everywhere.

Example - no stereo in car, but the space is left, so we can buy and put it there

Simple isn't it ?

MS always like monopoly and kill competition, as I mentioned on the other threads, at a customer point of view, we may not feel bad - afterall we get a browser and media player free ! But customer is not the only part in a business. So monopoly or un-ethical business practices may be good for customer sometimes but that does not mean that that is good business.

All other points in the thread (starting post) sounds sensible, except this one. When apple make something, thats not really a threat but when MS make something like that it is really a threat. Thats the difference.

Most of the discussion above is around the customer - like whos stopping you from uninstalling - installing etc etc. But the point is not about customer, it is about un-ethical business practice, bundling products to kill competition and monopoly. So there is no point in arguing at a customer point of view.

din said:
Consider the threads I mentioned. Car and stereo. A car can run without a stereo, no problem at all. Tomo if Maruti forces the user to buy some crappy stereo of their own (made by maruti -lol) thats not a good business practise.

The stereo fits in the stero compartment of the Car's chassis, u can fit any 3rd party stereo like Sony XPload

A Win32 software fits in Win32 enviroment of Vista, u can install any 3rd party software u like. For most users who are not geeks, the default out of the box applications are good enough.

Now if the media player or browser is a part of OS and they can't be removed - OK, agreed. Basically there will not be any need of the interface, am I right ? I mean the basic engine (whetever it is called) may be needed but not the browser as such and not the media player as such. Just like MS deliver Win without media player (yes they do even before the proposal) in EU, they can do it everywhere.

Which in turn will ruin the Out of the box experience even further & then I will send u to answer anyone who asks me "Why can't MS provide a media player & browser in Windows when Linux & Mac OS provides them out of the box?". I hope u know that Windows XP N was the least successful version of Windows ever created. Hardly any OEM in Europe is providing it.

Example - no stereo in car, but the space is left, so we can buy and put it there Simple isn't it ?

What if u want to play music just after leaving the showroom? Thats why a stereo is there already be default for a better out of the showroom experience.

MS always like monopoly and kill competition, as I mentioned on the other threads, at a customer point of view, we may not feel bad - afterall we get a browser and media player free ! But customer is not the only part in a business.

It would have been monopolistic if MS disallowed installation & usage of 3rd party media players & browsers as default in Windows.

When apple make something, thats not really a threat but when MS make something like that it is really a threat. Thats the difference.

ACDSee is a image manager & browser, you can edit images too. Adobe lightroom is again the same thing. Is Windows Photo Gallery a threat to these applications in Vista? What u r saying is not always true. MS is just trying to provide better out of the box experience. U want MS not to kill competition then tell users to stop asking MS for features out of the box in Windows.

bundling products to kill competition and monopoly. So there is no point in arguing at a customer point of view.

What....? Products are bundled with the OS so that user don't have to hunt for things after installing. At one point u r saying MS shouldn't bundle things with the OS while on the other hand mediator says he wants better out of the box Experience....lolz

Moral of the Story - Microsoft, damned if they do, Damned if they don't

gx_saurav said:
Really, I doubt that judging by the sheer number of applications for Mac OS X & arya's reply.

Except the biggies like Photoshop, how many of them are comparable and a threat to the ones bundled in Mac OS X?

gx_saurav said:
Wait, if you can see a HTML Help file, (*.chm) then there is a HTML engine still there in Gnome DE (example)

Thats what I said. The HTML engine is independent of the browser! Read again. Btw, there are no chm help files.

gx_saurav said:
I don't like Quicktime, can I uninstall it in Mac OS X, sure I can, but then the software will be uninstalled but engine will still be there. If I remove the quicktime engine, Mac OS X will seaize to work properly.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Mac OS X is the least tolerant in this case. You are simply repeating what I haf said.

gx_saurav said:
Fine, u do have the option to install anything else u want. I don't like Firefox in Ubuntu, where is my option to install Opera during the installation of Ubuntu & not Firefox?

Firefox is not a product of Canonical. Its a 3rd party product anyways. And Yes, you could've done that till sometime ago. You could've NOT installed firefox when installing ubuntu. However, some users complained that the installation was too complicated. Hence this feature was removed. You can do this in some other distros, tho. Btw, you can completely uninstall Firefox (or whatever web browser you use) and/or the Gstreamer backend and yet haf a system which has an unaffected HTML engine and allows you to install some other Multimedia backend.

This is, however, not possible in Mac OS and its not a problem either. I don't know of any multimedia engine for Mac OS which is better, other than QuickTime. If there was competition there this move would've been a bad one by Apply. They made sure that they held the reins in this category from begining and hence when Apple bundles it, its not threatening the existance of anyone.

Everyone knows that Apple is completely closed source and locked company. What more can you expect from it? Inspite of knowing this its futile to whine later. We don't want MS to become another Apple and its in the interest of the whole computing community.

gx_saurav said:
Lolz...Safari better then firefox, u must be joking right

Mebbe you've never used Mac OS X properly.

gx_saurav said:
I was comparing IE 7 software only, thats why i mentioned it clearly.

You were comparing IE7 with what?? With itself?? When you compare something you do it AGAINST another entity. It can never be a one man show.

infra_red_dude said:
Except the biggies like Photoshop, how many of them are comparable and a threat to the ones bundled in Mac OS X?

iPhoto/Aperature - Adobe Lightroom
iChat - Adium
iWork - MS office
Quicktime - VLC player
iTunes - Monopoly but real player will do too.

Thats what I said. The HTML engine is independent of the browser!

Yes, & it will still be there, so u can very well "compleatey" uninstall IE 7 from Vista. Now whats your problem anymore?

Btw, there are no chm help files.

What the

then what are those CHM help files (compiled HTML help) files which I got with AutoCAD & 3Ds Max which i read when i m having a hard time understanding physics of mental ray.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Mac OS X is the least tolerant in this case. You are simply repeating what I haf said.

Yup, so shouldn't Apple be sued too?

you can completely uninstall Firefox (or whatever web browser you use)

U can compleately uninstall IE 7 Software too.

I don't know of any multimedia engine for Mac OS which is better, other than QuickTime.

VLC Player engine.

Everyone knows that Apple is completely closed source and locked company. What more can you expect from it? Inspite of knowing this its futile to whine later.

So why blame MS when they bundle something to provide better out of the box experience.

Mebbe you've never used Mac OS X properly.

Read again, I have mentioned that Safari software is better then firefox on Mac, cos its native & integrated in Mac OS. But as a browser Firefox is much better then safari on Mac.

I was comparing IE 7 frontend software part to Firefox software frontend

gx_saurav said:
At one point u r saying MS shouldn't bundle things with the OS while on the other hand mediator says he wants better out of the box Experience....lolz

Hmm, the ids din and mediator are two and they are of different persons. Both views may be same, may be different, and I failed to understand why you wrote like the same person posts contradicting. Both are from different persons.

Why MS bundle things is - not to help customers. It is very clear from the very old browser issue itself. They still repeat the same old trick and the US and EU courts give orders against them.

Regarding safari and FF. I never used safari in a mac and I do not know. Are you using a mac ? I mean not a PC and all those hack to run mac os and not the safari in win. The real mac. Unless you use that how can you tell whether safari is good in a mac or FF ?

Now don't tell you do not own a mac, but you borrowed from a friend for 2 days

and you found FF better than safari.

gx_saurav said:
What if u want to play music just after leaving the showroom? Thats why a stereo is there already be default for a better out of the showroom experience.

Hmm, seems you didn't read my post. Please, this is not a thing that can be analysed a customer point of view. This is un-ethical business practise that kills competition and a threat to other companies. Nothing to do with customer.

now - story of the day lol

All characters in this story are fictious. There may be similarities in the name or character but the author did not meant that

Yr 2008. Hero in the movie - gy_saurav attend the MS interview. Bill bhai ask him questions and by looking at the posts he made in different forums and his capabilitis in UI design Bill is pretty happy and decide to appoint him in MS Bangalore. But ask him to join only in 2009. gy_saurav decide to go to blore in 2008 itself and plans to start a juice stall (to earn something before he join MS). He start a juice stall near a womens college (no, he has no plans for vista install at night 2 am). On the second day another guy from culcutta, one mr.varyaush came to knew this. By selling all the apple fruits he had in godown he is flying to blore. On the very next day another guy called Praka_new from Kerala also came to know that and selle his rubber estate and move to blore. Both these guys starts fast food shops very near to gy_saurav's shop. None of these are exclusive juice shops. varyaush offer 50 Rs apple biriyani and 1 big glass juice is free with it. Praka_new offer free food but the customer have to - either prepare it himself or pay for making it. All three shops are working fine. One day two friends - infra_blue_dude and dan decide to go out to have something. They decide to enter gy_saurav's shop. Now varyaush raise a big board - come here, have juice for free and they all see Praka_new's shop too. The story is complete here. Anyone can use this for free and make their own end part etc. But in the un-altered story, gy_saurav is out of business, heart broken (only ray of hope is Bill Bhai's promise) and the movie ends with the song ...

Every night in my dreams I see free juice ...

end of the movie. There is no way to beat a person through internet after reading all the crap he wrote, , so I am very safe

din said:
Hmm, the ids din and mediator are two and they are of different persons. Both views may be same, may be different, and I failed to understand why you wrote like the same person posts contradicting. Both are from different persons.

Moral of the Line - A product cannot satisfy everyone equally.

Why MS bundle things is - not to help customers.

So bundling a web browser so that user can check his mails 2 mins after installing Windows is bad? Wow...I don't understand the logic u r using here.

Are you using a mac ? I mean not a PC and all those hack to run mac os and not the safari in win. The real mac. Unless you use that how can you tell whether safari is good in a mac or FF ?

Because safari software works same on Macintosh or Hackintosh

Now don't tell you do not own a mac, but you borrowed from a friend for 2 days and you found FF better than safari.

Nah, I test Mac on my nearest Apple store

Hmm, seems you didn't read my post. Please, this is not a thing that can be analysed a customer point of view. This is un-ethical business practice that kills competition and a threat to other companies. Nothing to do with customer.

Rule one of business : Satisfy the customer. Providing a stereo out of the showroom is satisfying the customer. Whats the problem? With that logic Maruti shouldn't provide the car with seat covers, belts, stereo, tire, gearbox, nitro...jet engine & what not.

now - story of the day lol

gy_saurav is out of business, heart broken (only ray of hope is Bill Bhai's promise) and the movie ends with the song ...

How? Those who don't want to eat & only want juice can get juice from gy's shop for less then Rs 50 compared to varyaush, & they don't even have to prepare juice first themselves compared to praka_new's shop. They just want to drink some juice so why wait & labor to prepare it or buy apple biryani when all u want is some juice to end the thirst.

Why are the customers forced to buy biryani when they want to drink some juice?

Why the customer is forced to make the juice himself when he wants to drink something & go back to work.?

Phew....man @Din/Dan is dangerous!! I was searching for my alias in the story half the time. U shud compete with Dan Brown man!

gx_saurav said:
iPhoto/Aperature - Adobe Lightroom
iChat - Adium
iWork - MS office
Quicktime - VLC player
iTunes - Monopoly but real player will do too.

Adobe, MS Offie aren't the biggies? I think I clearly mentioned biggies in my post.

gx_saurav said:
What the then what are those CHM help files (compiled HTML help) files which I got with AutoCAD & 3Ds Max which i read when i m having a hard time understanding physics of mental ray.

AutoCAD and 3DS Max run on GNOME??? Read your post again.

gx_saurav said:
Yup, so shouldn't Apple be sued too?

Ethically yes, practically NO. Coz when you buy an Apple product you know that you are locked beforehand. Thats what I mentioned. The Mac territory is completely under Apple. Its like this: If you goto Saudi Arabia and commit a crime your hands mebbe chopped off and there's little you can do anything about it. But here in India inspite of committing a crime if such a thing happens then you can approach a court. You can't complain about Saudi Arabia coz you know beforehand about the laws.

Same is the case with Apple. You know beforehand what you can expect and what you can't.

gx_saurav said:
VLC Player engine.

You think its a threat to the Quicktime engine on Mac?

gx_saurav said:
Read again, I have mentioned that Safari software is better then firefox on Mac, cos its native & integrated in Mac OS. But as a browser Firefox is much better then safari on Mac.

Sorry I cudn't find this in your post. Plz point me to it.

All I could find was this:

gx_saurav said:
Safari software works better then Firefox software on Mac

About comparing IE and FF

gx_saurav said:
I was comparing IE 7 frontend software part to Firefox software frontend

Yes, FF is more secure out of the box than IE.

@Din
Awesome story, obscure but very relevant!

infra_red_dude said:
AutoCAD and 3DS Max run on GNOME??? Read your post again.

Oh, Ok,...u never mentioned u were talking about Gnome.

Same is the case with Apple. You know beforehand what you can expect and what you can't.

Moral - Apple & Mac OS sux

You think its a threat to the Quicktime engine on Mac?

No, but its better then Quicktime engine & I can't switch to i on Mac, so why do people sue MS only when they provide DirectShow engine in Windows which cannot be completely removed.

Yes, FF is more secure out of the box than IE.

Questionable & subjective. Out of the box firefox is useless without extensions

gx_saurav said:
Oh, Ok,...u never mentioned u were talking about Gnome.

I never spoke about it. It was your own statement:

gx_saurav said:
Wait, if you can see a HTML Help file, (*.chm) then there is a HTML engine still there in Gnome DE (example)

gx_saurav said:
Moral - Apple & Mac OS sux

Its like saying Saudi Arabia sux, refering to the prev. example. But people who are accustomed to staying there still like it, rite? They don't haf any problems coz its their decision inspite of knowing it beforehand. However, its not the case on the PC platform. You know how things are here.

gx_saurav said:
No, but its better then Quicktime engine...

I don't think so. Again it mebbe subjective.

gx_saurav said:
so why do people sue MS only when they provide DirectShow engine in Windows which cannot be completely removed.

I'm with you regarding this. I think the whole DX package is worth its weight.

gx_saurav said:
Questionable & subjective.

Security is neither questionable nor subjective.

gx_saurav said:
Out of the box firefox is useless without extensions

IE is no better. Someone shed some light on Safari on Mac (Macboys only plz) The best OOBE is provided by Opera tho. It has everything bundled in a small package.

infra_red_dude said:
Security is neither questionable nor subjective.

Security is not questionable, but whether firefox is more secure then IE 7 out of the box or not, this is questionable.

Opera is best out of the box. Just that due to lack of support for AI roboform I don't like it.

gx_saurav said:
but whether firefox is more secure then IE 7 out of the box or not, this is questionable.

Why does Opera get a step-motherly treatment always? Its not IE vs FF. Its IE vs. 3rd Party alternative browsers (including Safari)

I just said in a very polite way that Opera is not for me.

din said:
Example - no stereo in car, but the space is left, so we can buy and put it there Simple isn't it ?

unfortunately u arent aware of the fact that most cars over 5lakh come with a pre-installed music system

research before speaking

Uh....I used to use firefox without any extensions. And I find it much better than IE. Questionable and subjective? I don't think so. Everyone in the office loves firefox as well, out of the box. No extensions added.

And safari does not run the same in OS X and Windows. Same goes for iTunes. First of all they are really zippy on OS X. Then there's the large scale integration with the other apps which you don't get in the windows environment. Everything is integrated with one another...

@din: Awesome story! I wonder who you mean by gy_saurav.... must be someone from this forum...hmm...

iMav said:
unfortunately u arent aware of the fact that most cars over 5lakh come with a pre-installed music system research before speaking

Hmm, I know this is offtopic, but as you mentioned I will reply.

My SUV is over 5 lakh, I bought it 6 months back and it didn't come with a stereo. And yes, I did a nice research before I buy

On the other hand, small cars mostly come with stereo, thats a trick too. Coz they give ads like get free gfts worth 20,000, get stereo free etc etc. But when we buy cars over 5 lakh, we mainly look on other features and not the pre-installed stereo or the small gift things they give.

If you still want to do a research, go here - *indiacar.com/buynew/new.asp - very useful.

And finally, I always wanted to mention - car company making stereo - only that point and not any third party good stereo system attached to the car.

Off topic - over.

goobimama said:
@din: Awesome story! I wonder who you mean by gy_saurav.... must be someone from this forum...hmm...

No no

All the characters are fictious.

goobimama said:
And safari does not run the same in OS X and Windows. Same goes for iTunes. First of all they are really zippy on OS X. Then there's the large scale integration with the other apps which you don't get in the windows environment. Everything is integrated with one another...

Exactly. That is what I tried to mention. I never used OS X or mac. But I guessed safari may not work same in mac and in PC. Atleast thats the feedback I got from my clients who use mac for quite a long time.

ur SUV i dont knowq but pick up a civic u get 1; pick up a corolla u get 1 pick up a merc u get 1 pick up a crv u get 1 pick up a indigo u get 1 mahindra i hav no clue .... and how cud i forget my car pick up a city u get 1 ... maruti; santro and indica are only some who dont giv a system ....

however i am going off topic .... a car stereo is a device worth 15k not giving reduces costs drasctically and isnt an integral part of the cars working however an internet explorer and media player today are an integral part

@iMav

Oh no, we are diverting from the thread a lot.

First what I meant to say - Car makers (for example Maruti) giving stereo set made by them. Can you imagine a "Made by Maruti" stereo ? Thats the point. It is not about the third party stereo set you get with the car.

Coming back to teh topic, as I mention in the other example, those who are coming for a lunch will go for Rs.50 apple biriyani (they get a biriyani + juice free) instaed of having biriyani alone from one shop and juice from other shop. That kills the competition and the juice guy will eventually close down the shop. Thats it.

Now for a customer point of view, nothing matters, thats why I said we should not look at the matter at a customer point of view.

din said:
Now for a customer point of view, nothing matters, thats why I said we should not look at the matter at a customer point of view.

for a company its only customers to look at .... for MS and apple; for mozilla; ubuntu every1 its the users who they look at and nothing else more the customers better for the company .... so for a consumer pout of the experience is what matters and what will make the consumer upgrade and if an OS doesnot have a browser or a mail client or a media player why shud some 1 buy it yaar ...

u r forgetting that only a handful of computer sers know the difference between betweeen ie and opera or ff .... ie 7 by in itself is a rock solid browser and can compete with ff and opera so for a normal user it doesnt make much of a difference and that is what the whole thing is for whom it doesnt make a difference of whether it is ie or wmp as long as it does the what it is supposed to

i buy a hp r a compaq lappy or desktop with an os on it its gonna be really frustrating and pissing if the media player and browser arent there ... whats the point of buying it

Well, yes, I also agree the thing - Customer rules. That is why I support the laptop or PC companies should support more OS than Win and should give option to customer whether he need a OS with lappy, if so, which Os he need etc. Already discussed on the other thread.

Now the antithrust, monopoly, killing competition - all these are NOT related to customer. So we can't look at this issue at a customer point of view. When you are in a business you will know it better. Yes, customer is king and we should provide him everything PLUS we should follow the business rules, should know what we can do and we can't.

MS gave browser to customer free, and customer is happy - that is NOT allowed in business. It is similar to Maruti making stereo with a car making license. Maruti is not supposed to do it.

Still the point is not clear ? Or you pretend it is not clear ? lol

why isnt maruti allowed to start making its own music system just coz they have been making cars for the 3 decades

my company makes gas detectors and imports the gas sensors so is there a rule which forbids me from making gas sensors that i can use in my systems

if for ff and opera and google it is so muych big a deal tht MS bundles its own browser so why dont they make their own bloody OS and bundle or not bundle what ever they want to ...

MS is a software company they make an OS which is the mother of all softwares everything runs on a an OS so if they are making an OS an internet browser and media player are an integral part of it .... it is not like MS has started giving ie and wmp from vista .... they both have been a part of windows since 95 or b4 unlike ur example where amruti starts making music systems from this year ... MS has been bundling and improving ie and wmp since 95

Din, your theory of Maruti is not allowd to make stereo system doesn't fit. It would have been valid if Maruti makes a stereo system, disallowing installation of any other 3rd party stereo like kenwood or Sony.

^^^ I fail to understand the logic where you consider the case of Shoe and Laces as a valid comparison but the stereo thing as not!

Anyways, won't digress from the topic. So no offtopic replies from me.

that was an example of what is an integral part of something and what is not .... a music system is not an integral part of a car where as today an internet browser and media player are

I am really sorry for going too much away from the topic, anyway

@gx_saurav

Maruti is supposed to make cars only. They are not supposed to make a sterreo and give it free with a car.

Point 1 - This is business law to avoid unhealthy compettion (rule against killing competition).

Point 2 - Again and again, this has nothing to do with customer. Customer may be happy with the stereo, he may not be unhappy without it. That does not matter in this case. Here the company have to follow some rules. Just to make the customer happy they just can't do everything - which is against the laws / rules.

Sorry, can't explain more than this,lol.

@iMav

Car and stereo = OS and browser or OS and media player. They have other option for a browser or a media player. They can install any, so it is not something un-avoidable

Shoe and lace = OS with keyboard and mouse support. Almost all cases we need keyboard and mouse support for an OS, that is un-avoidable. Evenif mouse is not there, we need atlast keyboard support.

If a court ask MS to give Windows without keyboard support + mouse support = foolishness

If a court ask MS to give Windows without browser and media player = they are making it clear that MS has to follow the rules.

Please, shall we go back to the topic and may be the mac boys will be able to explain more - based on the topic ?

what rules are that ... MS has been coding IE and wmp for long its not like today they have decided to bundle it .... its their code and they have the right to sell if MS is wrong in doing so Apple is wrong .... some 1 said step motherly treatment this is a perfect example of sheer hatred and step motherly treatment against a single company a company that makes to things cant bundle them together waah din kya logic hai ...

in other words i shud not make my own sensors simply because another company makes it .... great man great logic ....

@iMav

OK, now I got it ! You are pretending you didn't get the logic. I do not want to continue on this as there is no use in explainig the same thing again and again. Ok, before I stop, kindly google for two things

1. The browser bundling issue that happened before where the US court ordered against MS

2. The MP bundling issue that happened recently in EU - again order against MS

Read it carefully and you will know what a company can do in business and what they can not. Also you will find article which will answer your questions - that is what rule, which rule etc.

I stop the arguement here as I explained the points very well and there is no use in trying to wake up someone whos already awake

Please carry on. Bye.

ya i understood only a few things ....

1 of them being .... maruti cant make music systems and put them in their car because there are other companies making music systems so it is illegal for maruti to do so ....

Can we please stop the car thing going on here? I'm getting a bit confused...

Who are all the guys talking about the car stuff in an apple thread ? ? Get em and we will (myself and iMav) will beat em up right now, tell their names, fast

We were discussing things like ..

Dashboard is a rip of Konfabulator, Spaces a copy previous Virtual Deskop features, Cover Flow was actually purchased from a 3rd party developer, the iPhone ads are a blatant rips of a film "Telephones"

@iMav

Any clue whats Goobi taking about ? ? Car ?

i dont have any clue .... goobi whats wrong with u man ... did apple start making cars ... why are u talking about cars here

Weird...I don't know what I was thinking about. Must have been dreaming of Priyanka Chopra or something...was not in my senses...

LOL! This is funny stuff. :lol:

aryayush: good job dude

caged leopard