Wake Up! India's Ranking on HWBOT.org is too low!!

It's bcoz of idiots like me

Low!! Register there man and have fun!!! .....

Yawn!!!

Peace~~~!

dude. why are you worried about ranking in funny timepass overclocking business when our country ranks among the best in semiconductor R&D. Period!

i second desiibond. Who considers those ranks aeriously anyway? They are just waste of time.

and this comment really tickled ..:

Post there in HWBOT.org and make India proud show world what we are!! I am doing my part so you all should do your part!!

Click to expand...

Grow up buddy. nobody gives a damn and it won't even make it to the farthest corner of a daily news paper.

I'd love to overclock but after I get a good machine which will be in July.

If you want a separate overclocking section, I'm ready to make one.

Not everyone can try out liquid nitrogen overclocking.

@desibond
All my intension is to promote the overclocking community and make awareness.
You are right!! There will not be any Newspaper report true but Us Overclockers do really care for such that? Specially in India?
No!!
Even if one gets top position he will be treated as nobody.. LOL

I think you are too much into getting famous and thats what you care...

Otherthoughts:
More Overclockers means more championships, more compnay will be keen on them,

Already in india there are 3-4 Overclocking Championships is happening. Do you know about that buddy? Have you checked the Prize money!!?? The Goodies they get?

Isn't it great to get a free hardware that you love most?

This thread is not for guys who yawn at it!! You grow up guys, stay away from this thread!!

In other forums our Champion - thebanik already said for us it's hard to be top as LN2 is not yet popular etcetc

But why not give these try once..who has the buck! Who know someday one of us might get the crown as banik..

Its all in the mind and how you takke it!! If you don't like the thread better not posting here mate!!


@ico

If you mods can do promoting this it be great!! Make sticky!! Create section... will be great!! There are others threads in here as well, move them.
Do as you want!!
You are the mod

thunder.02dragon said:

@ico

If you mods can do promoting this it be great!! Make sticky!! Create section... will be great!! There are others threads in here as well, move them.
Do as you want!!

Click to expand...

Already done that and moved few threads which I could find.

@ico

Great!! Thanks man!

@ico

Add the 3DMark threads, Super PI, Overcloking threads too..

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 AM ----------

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/community-discussions/121310-post-your-3dmark-results-here.html

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/overclocking-modding-show-off/121070-overclock-list-discussion-thread.html

I would love to overclock as well but i am restricted by my mobo's capability. If i get a good overclocking rig in future, then i will surely post my results in that site.

You better sell that mobo and get any decent OCing mobo, if you really concern about the mobo's limited ability.

^^ yup correct but i will be moving out soon buddy. Changing my mobo won't matter as well.

^^ means? You going to upgrade to going to sell the rig?

As said on TE:

I didn't bother to comment there but since you're posting on certain other forums, its time to burst some bubbles. Here's something to wake you up and tempt you to smell some coffee (or a bad whipped cream).

Out of the "1 lakh" power users, 80-85% person are self proclaimed junkies with high level of arrogance and intelligence equivalent to a roadkill, whereas about 5% are people who have the potential but just not doing it right or maybe they lack time/resources and space, 0.1%- 0.5% of that number is technically a publicity stunt to lure people in for brands AND dealers in exchange for free hardware, whereas others are really not interested to brag themselves as one because its just lame. According to you and a lot of people, the meaning of "power user" is limited to overclocking- that's it. Feeling the pride now??

People who end up being fragbait call themselves as gamers/gaming experts. People who don't even see layout, dimensions, specs, compatibility issue, etc and even went to the length of misquoting senior (by knowledge and experience) call themselves as experts...and power users. If we're going to use words like "100 crore population" "power users" "shame" and "pride", then one should first start by questioning themselves if they're really power users. Don't get me wrong, but people used almost same set of words for gaming as well. I have huge amount of respects to people who want to be power users compared to people who pose themselves as one. Give it a day or 2 and such blokes will end up being a centrefold poster boy .

Click to expand...

thunder.dragon said:

@ Sorcy


You are right..Not I am a power user in other forum I explained this sort of already....
I just wanted to create a awareness and some scores in hwbot

Rest all words are applicable to me also ( ) so but we can change right?

Click to expand...

I am not a power user so here's my take.

Few of those blokes in that Top #5 HWBot India doesn't even consider themselves as power users yet because they know the real meaning of power users.

Few of these "power users" used the wrong set of screws to mount TRUE120E and fell on 4850- blaming the heatsink.

Few of these blokes don't know the benifit/cons of push-pull, bolt through and enourmous heatsinks.

Few of those power users don't know the difference in thread count/thickness of the same heatsink kit comparing AMD bolt throughs with Intel secure kits

Few of these power users use one philosophy: If it fits, it has to work.

Few of these power users don't know what is Driver ICs, Mosfets, voltage regulators, etc. (and I still have a hell of a lot to still learn about this).

Few of those "power users" don't even know that technically whatever chokes came on boards were all iron chokes, even before they were "advertised".

Few of those power users don't know the difference between inductors and phase.

Few of those power users don't know the difference between thermal pads, thermal paste and paraffin wax.

Few of these power users use fan controller and thermal sensor 5.25 inch bay- but only connect the power and become happy with LED lights.

Few of these power users brag locally because they know they're surrounded by people who don't know the facts.

Few of those power users don't know that depending on the layout the fins on the ripjaws could touch D14- or a very small amount of space left- still its recommended.

Few of those power users put up fancy pics and screenshots of CPU-Z which only proves you were able to boot it with that speed, not necessarily stable- but claim to be one by saying that its benched.

These "power users" would end up being massacred and embarassed if they go for competitions in the international level. Forget overclocking, most of the people don't even know the basics. BTW, the points above? These points came during the conversation with multiple people personally and online- and most of these people are not power users and not associated with forums (but they know what kind of exotic words certain folks use). One guy is telling to 1 manufacturer that the hardware scene in India is still sad and says to another manufacturer of the similar hardware says the opposite. First learn the basics as in individual before deeming it as a "Dent" as a "national pride". Its just plain wrong. Just because you spend a lot of money on hardware or give advices to countless people doesn't make you a power user either.

Some people call me a troll because there are times I end up correcting the person multiple times on multiple forums. Not my problem if they can't understand the facts. All of a sudden, such people got their own troll team so I limit my comments. I am telling you because I know you since the chip days and I dont need to remind you dude-that the cake is a lie!!!11 Those people whom you deem as power users- most of them are not even half-way close despite the "Stuff" they do- and they do it just to become famous. In reality, most of these power users are mature guys, dating back to the 70s when they used to stash memory sticks and smaller ADD-On cards in those bulky CRT screens when they import stuff.

Thunder Dragon:
Great initiative must say, but it could have been worded in a more subtle paradigm. India is a developing nation and having a personal system at home is not a factor to be taken for granted. Extrapolating, procuring an enthusiast system is a phenomena for most house holds, and LN2 is equivalent to 'not possible'. How can we expect us (India) to be in the top heap for such parametric scores. You know what hardware is required to even seed an start in these leagues. I am an OC'er, but hell no, can I compete in those arenas. Why. Just cannot afford. Monetary wise and/or time wise. It just takes too much resource and fitment change of ones character. Priorities are different in this part of the world. On the flip-side the most TDF can do is (or is doing) to have a dedicated OC section where we can advice users how to OC and the pros/cons of the same. Changes are happening, and believe me they are, but the rate at which you desire is not justified. Sorry to say, will take a while.

What more can I say to the group here. OC safe, once burnt, no return.

vickybat said:

I would love to overclock as well but i am restricted by my mobo's capability. If i get a good overclocking rig in future, then i will surely post my results in that site.

Click to expand...

Believe me. The day you start to OC, it is so addictive. Gosh, have killed so many of my sleeping hours just to get that extra 100Mhz increment. You know I have a Q9550, but still retain the E7400. Safety.


Sorcerer:
Nice explanation about 'power users'. Makes a lot of sense.

Few of those power users put up fancy pics and screenshots of CPU-Z which only proves you were able to boot it with that speed, not necessarily stable- but claim to be one by saying that its benched.

Click to expand...

Seen this happening a lot. It is quite irritating and amusing at the same time.

@ thunder - though I appropriate your your thoughts it's not possible for me to compete right now :

I've great enthusiasm about OC but I fall under this category :

5% are people who have the potential but just not doing it right or maybe they lack time/resources and space

Click to expand...

- from sorcy's post.

But someday I might put up my scores there when I feel I'm eligible enough - for the time being I'm more interested in helping those who wants know about OC and wants to really do some OC.

The Sorcerer said:

Few of those power users put up fancy pics and screenshots of CPU-Z which only proves you were able to boot it with that speed, not necessarily stable- but claim to be one by saying that its benched.

Click to expand...

I know who you are talking about.

The Sorcerer said:

As said on TE:



I am not a power user so here's my take.

Few of those blokes in that Top #5 HWBot India doesn't even consider themselves as power users yet because they know the real meaning of power users.

Few of these "power users" used the wrong set of screws to mount TRUE120E and fell on 4850- blaming the heatsink.

Few of these blokes don't know the benifit/cons of push-pull, bolt through and enourmous heatsinks.

Few of those power users don't know the difference in thread count/thickness of the same heatsink kit comparing AMD bolt throughs with Intel secure kits

Few of these power users use one philosophy: If it fits, it has to work.

Few of these power users don't know what is Driver ICs, Mosfets, voltage regulators, etc. (and I still have a hell of a lot to still learn about this).

Few of those "power users" don't even know that technically whatever chokes came on boards were all iron chokes, even before they were "advertised".

Few of those power users don't know the difference between inductors and phase.

Few of those power users don't know the difference between thermal pads, thermal paste and paraffin wax.

Few of these power users use fan controller and thermal sensor 5.25 inch bay- but only connect the power and become happy with LED lights.

Few of these power users brag locally because they know they're surrounded by people who don't know the facts.

Few of those power users don't know that depending on the layout the fins on the ripjaws could touch D14- or a very small amount of space left- still its recommended.

Few of those power users put up fancy pics and screenshots of CPU-Z which only proves you were able to boot it with that speed, not necessarily stable- but claim to be one by saying that its benched.

These "power users" would end up being massacred and embarassed if they go for competitions in the international level. Forget overclocking, most of the people don't even know the basics. BTW, the points above? These points came during the conversation with multiple people personally and online- and most of these people are not power users and not associated with forums (but they know what kind of exotic words certain folks use). One guy is telling to 1 manufacturer that the hardware scene in India is still sad and says to another manufacturer of the similar hardware says the opposite. First learn the basics as in individual before deeming it as a "Dent" as a "national pride". Its just plain wrong. Just because you spend a lot of money on hardware or give advices to countless people doesn't make you a power user either.

Some people call me a troll because there are times I end up correcting the person multiple times on multiple forums. Not my problem if they can't understand the facts. All of a sudden, such people got their own troll team so I limit my comments. I am telling you because I know you since the chip days and I dont need to remind you dude-that the cake is a lie!!!11 Those people whom you deem as power users- most of them are not even half-way close despite the "Stuff" they do- and they do it just to become famous. In reality, most of these power users are mature guys, dating back to the 70s when they used to stash memory sticks and smaller ADD-On cards in those bulky CRT screens when they import stuff.

Click to expand...

all right..we all know this.

the OP started the thread with a noble sentiment - doesnt deserve any bashing...and i support him.

I am not bashing. I am sure thunder is well-aware of that .

Power users are simply a different league of guys and you just can't call anyone as power users. Same goes for hardware enthusiasts- the meaning is not as same as fanboys. Terminology has to be be used as accurate as possible for starters, if we ever want to see any improvement. Not I am preaching or anything, but there are one gets an opportunity to address such matters.

Thread Title Edited ! A thread like this can't have a wrong name

Changed from this :

Wake Up! India's Ramking on HWBOT.org is too low

Click to expand...

to this :

Wake Up! India's Ranking on HWBOT.org is too low

Click to expand...

The Sorcerer said:

As said on TE:



I am not a power user so here's my take.

Few of those blokes in that Top #5 HWBot India doesn't even consider themselves as power users yet because they know the real meaning of power users.

Few of these "power users" used the wrong set of screws to mount TRUE120E and fell on 4850- blaming the heatsink.

Few of these blokes don't know the benifit/cons of push-pull, bolt through and enourmous heatsinks.

Few of those power users don't know the difference in thread count/thickness of the same heatsink kit comparing AMD bolt throughs with Intel secure kits

Few of these power users use one philosophy: If it fits, it has to work.

Few of these power users don't know what is Driver ICs, Mosfets, voltage regulators, etc. (and I still have a hell of a lot to still learn about this).

Few of those "power users" don't even know that technically whatever chokes came on boards were all iron chokes, even before they were "advertised".

Few of those power users don't know the difference between inductors and phase.

Few of those power users don't know the difference between thermal pads, thermal paste and paraffin wax.

Few of these power users use fan controller and thermal sensor 5.25 inch bay- but only connect the power and become happy with LED lights.

Few of these power users brag locally because they know they're surrounded by people who don't know the facts.

Few of those power users don't know that depending on the layout the fins on the ripjaws could touch D14- or a very small amount of space left- still its recommended.

Few of those power users put up fancy pics and screenshots of CPU-Z which only proves you were able to boot it with that speed, not necessarily stable- but claim to be one by saying that its benched.

These "power users" would end up being massacred and embarassed if they go for competitions in the international level. Forget overclocking, most of the people don't even know the basics. BTW, the points above? These points came during the conversation with multiple people personally and online- and most of these people are not power users and not associated with forums (but they know what kind of exotic words certain folks use). One guy is telling to 1 manufacturer that the hardware scene in India is still sad and says to another manufacturer of the similar hardware says the opposite. First learn the basics as in individual before deeming it as a "Dent" as a "national pride". Its just plain wrong. Just because you spend a lot of money on hardware or give advices to countless people doesn't make you a power user either.

Some people call me a troll because there are times I end up correcting the person multiple times on multiple forums. Not my problem if they can't understand the facts. All of a sudden, such people got their own troll team so I limit my comments. I am telling you because I know you since the chip days and I dont need to remind you dude-that the cake is a lie!!!11 Those people whom you deem as power users- most of them are not even half-way close despite the "Stuff" they do- and they do it just to become famous. In reality, most of these power users are mature guys, dating back to the 70s when they used to stash memory sticks and smaller ADD-On cards in those bulky CRT screens when they import stuff.

Click to expand...

You know why would/can people say you are a troll(not that I have ever say/said it) because all you have listed is problems, but not a single solution.
I guess when you say just post a CPUz screenshot, you were talking about me, but I guess I made it clear last time as well, that AMD benchmarking is worthless because of its efficiency in benchmarks and Liquid Nitrogen is pretty expensive. So all that matters from AMD is the clocks and hence just CPUz screenshot.

Oh and now for those who think, overclocking cannot get you noticed, here is a link for you guyz, TOI interview of the 2 overclockers at the top in OP, Extreme Cooling: The Ace Overclocker in Todays TOI , BUT please do not pursue overclocking for the wrong reasons, do it only if you love it, as I read/heard somewhere, Do it for the right reasons, , I do it because I have been competitive always and overclocking gives me a way to relax ( gaming used to do it earlier, but wife banned gaming a few years ago, saying its childish, , )

thebanik said:

I guess when you say just post a CPUz screenshot, you were talking about me, but I guess I......

Click to expand...

Nope. You have that misconception about me, but nothing like that.

I am referring to people who claim that they have achieved a good OC using a CPU-Z screenshot on multiple threads, but CPU-Z is not a benchmarking tool. If an OC is not stable, then there's no point in bragging about it. If they cannot be honest to themselves and on the forums, then there's no point in joining hwbot. The solution is given on that post itself, one just need to read it. Many have understood it so far, so I know that post did its job. Jaskanwar for example asks the right questions, and the more questions that he asked eventually started to sound less annoying and somewhat more intelligent compared to the questions asked before- so efforts can be seen a bit from his part. There are people who found about the difference digital and analogue VRM on their own, so you say i have not put up a solution, others might not concur. I give pep-talks and it usually works.

People (in general) overclock to get better performance. No point in bragging about it if the setup is not stable in the first place.

The Sorcerer said:

Nope.

Click to expand...

There is a Hindi saying, 'chor ki daari mein tinka', so thats what happened here with me, I guess.

Do feel free to point out any other problems though, I like it better on my face then at back,

thebanik said:

You know why would/can people say you are a troll(not that I have ever say/said it) because all you have listed is problems, but not a single solution.
I guess when you say just post a CPUz screenshot, you were talking about me, but I guess I made it clear last time as well, that AMD benchmarking is worthless because of its efficiency in benchmarks and Liquid Nitrogen is pretty expensive. So all that matters from AMD is the clocks and hence just CPUz screenshot.

Oh and now for those who think, overclocking cannot get you noticed, here is a link for you guyz, TOI interview of the 2 overclockers at the top in OP, Extreme Cooling: The Ace Overclocker in Todays TOI , BUT please do not pursue overclocking for the wrong reasons, do it only if you love it, as I read/heard somewhere, Do it for the right reasons, , I do it because I have been competitive always and overclocking gives me a way to relax ( gaming used to do it earlier, but wife banned gaming a few years ago, saying its childish, , )

Click to expand...

it's not entirely worthless - it's just depends on what you call a worthless benhcmark and apps used in benchmarks. and what about GPU OC !!

here's some results for you ( in these benches AMD cpu performed well )
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/cpu-motherboards/135653-intel-sandy-bridge-discussion-8.html#post1350911

personally I still do believe that a stable OC is much more fruitful compared to

an unstable one which is entirely for show off and I lot people also like to see the highest possible clock speed without caring much about anything.

on the other a stable OC can be also useful to others to churn out the maximum possible of performance out of a component.

With OC I can get ~30% performance boost - so for me OCing is not just only show off but to get some serious performance out if it and I consider it as a worthwhile reason

but if you say all about scoring highest possible numbers with LN2 in clock speed, systemic benches and games - then I must say Intel is still has the crown of the dominator

we are in lower ranks because of ppl like me who values their gadgets as they were purchased by my own hard earned money....
i don't like to burn down my hardwares to showoff infront of some kids from other countries

@^^
Thats the actual sad part... Bro all buys stuffs from their hard earned money but still this is testing your limits. I am not saying go extreme but at least put it to some real use.
It's not showoff man!!! Hope others can explain..I am bad at it.

^^ hey his post is pretty much self explanatory and his laptop can't be OCed anyway

what's the benefit of OC other than showoff - I think I've told a little bit about this on post no. 26

^^
I am also not sayn bout lappies

It was a in general reply of the point he made

R2K said:

we are in lower ranks because of ppl like me who values their gadgets as they were purchased by my own hard earned money....
i don't like to burn down my hardwares to showoff infront of some kids from other countries

Click to expand...

Aah, and we find our hardware waiting in the corner of the street for us to pickup. Do you even know how to overclock???? Because if you knew and you understood your hardware, then you would know that its not that easy(infact I would say, almost close to impossible) to burn down your hardware, specially on air.

thebanik said:

Aah, and we find our hardware waiting in the corner of the street for us to pickup. Do you even know how to overclock???? Because if you knew and you understood your hardware, then you would know that its not that easy(infact I would say, almost close to impossible) to burn down your hardware, specially on air.

Click to expand...

Banik Sir, let us not be so harsh..! Most of the users are not too aware about OC, and have a latent fear that OC'ing can cause burn - outs. I will not debate if it can/cannot -- but we should try to make the public aware about safe OC methods and how it can provide a decent boost to performance. You yourself are a moderator and know how difficult these concepts are for people to grasp and implement.

asingh said:

Banik Sir, let us not be so harsh..! Most of the users are not too aware about OC, and have a latent fear that OC'ing can cause burn - outs. I will not debate if it can/cannot -- but we should try to make the public aware about safe OC methods and how it can provide a decent boost to performance. You yourself are a moderator and know how difficult these concepts are for people to grasp and implement.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the outburst but it was simply because rather than trying to learn overclocking which is pretty safe if you understand various terminologies used in a particular platform and if you understand the architecture of that platform, members here want to blow off overclocking as simply a showoff.

^^
This section has a dedicated OC section, and most non-Intel board users OC here. It is not a generic trend that TDF members consider OC as show-off. Change cannot happen over night, but we are helping drive it as much as possible.

R2K said:

we are in lower ranks because of ppl like me who values their gadgets as they were purchased by my own hard earned money....
i don't like to burn down my hardwares to showoff infront of some kids from other countries

Click to expand...

It's not really about show-off etc. Everyone buys stuff using their their hard earned money. Some people just like to push the limit of the hardware stuff they own. Nothing else. If you know what you're doing, there isn't any chance of burning things down. Having said that, everything has a learning curve.

asingh said:

^^
This section has a dedicated OC section, and most non-Intel board users OC here. It is not a generic trend that TDF members consider OC as show-off. Change cannot happen over night, but we are helping drive it as much as possible.

Click to expand...

Correct... There are plenty of youtube videos showing people trying to burn their components..specially CPU but alas not succeeding on air.. (Old P4 was one of the best videos)

Show-Off is different and OC should never be considered as that.. It should be like a competition.(I did this score!! Can you do this? I have guts to do 5Ghz.. try catch me.. etc etc - Challenge-Wining-loosing-fighting back)
All is here!! ..

Donno what I am saying but I am kinda speechless

thebanik said:

Aah, and we find our hardware waiting in the corner of the street for us to pickup. Do you even know how to overclock???? Because if you knew and you understood your hardware, then you would know that its not that easy(infact I would say, almost close to impossible) to burn down your hardware, specially on air.

Click to expand...

Dude by burn down i just meant to say causing permanent damage to the unit or hardware..And not that its gonna explode like bomb or something in mid air..geez
And i agree i never tried to learn OC as i never felt the need..

R2K said:

Dude by burn down i just meant to say causing permanent damage to the unit or hardware..And not that its gonna explode like bomb or something in mid air..geez

Click to expand...

Even I didnt mean literal burning, but meant damaging components only. And please stop it, or else I am gonna post this conversation in some other more enthusiastic oriented forum, , (sorry singh, thats what I had heard earlier, and thats the feeling I am getting in my very short period of stay here) in a thread like this, *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/community...est-things-youve-heard-related-computers.html

R2K said:

And i agree i never tried to learn OC as i never felt the need..

Click to expand...

Then overclocking is certainly not for you, its for computer enthusiasts or for people who do not have money to upgrade but still need more performance out of their rigs.
Though this is not the thread to discuss overclocking merits because even I do not much approve of the theme of the OP.

^^
OK boss...you win
But how do you OC anyway....Any resources to learn it from? Although i don't plan to do it..but i would definitely like to learn for sure

ico said:

It's not really about show-off etc. Everyone buys stuff using their their hard earned money. Some people just like to push the limit of the hardware stuff they own. Nothing else. If you know what you're doing, there isn't any chance of burning things down. Having said that, everything has a learning curve.

Click to expand...

Gonna try to learn it

topgear said:

^^ hey his post is pretty much self explanatory and his laptop can't be OCed anyway

what's the benefit of OC other than showoff - I think I've told a little bit about this on post no. 26

Click to expand...

LOL I know that my lappy is not that powerful but it pretty much does the job well..
I am not into gaming...and u don't need an alienware laptop for just browsing, watching movies, listening to music and reading ebooks.. lol

^^ yep, general day to day tasks like you mentioned above does not requires much system resource but once your laptop gets old and you feel like it's underpowered consider OCing it ( if you can anyway )

^ I cannot OC my Dell laptop But the desktop is an entirely different case
But, even with the rig that you can see in my signature, I do not think I will OC, just for the heck of competition.

^^ if you are satisfied with the performance ( and I bet you are ) and don't feel the need for more speed and extract the every last bit of performance out of your hardware then you don't need to OC now but once your rig gets older I think you might consider Ocing it though not now but might be in the future after 3-4 years later anyway

^True, I will OC once I am ready to make my next big upgrade, which will be 3-4 years from now

topgear said:

^^ yep, general day to day tasks like you mentioned above does not requires much system resource but once your laptop gets old and you feel like it's underpowered consider OCing it ( if you can anyway )

Click to expand...

even the current spec is an overkill for what i do...so there is no question of overclocking...But why are saying that the laptop can't be OCed anyway

R2K said:

even the current spec is an overkill for what i do...so there is no question of overclocking...But why are saying that the laptop can't be OCed anyway

Click to expand...

For OC to be possible. One basic criterion is that over clock setting (clocks, frequencies, voltages and like wise) to be exposed in the BIOS. Doubt that would be available on your laptop.

R2K said:

even the current spec is an overkill for what i do...so there is no question of overclocking...But why are saying that the laptop can't be OCed anyway

Click to expand...

I have not said you can't OC a lappy but I said if you can do it

^^
hmm....challenge huh...LOL...
OK i am not gonna crap on this thread anymore